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  • #31
    Originally posted by HelmsDerp View Post
    Think about it like prayer: Anybody, any time, any where can theoretically pray to a deity or saint or what have you for intercession. You don't necessarily get an answer, or even an acknowledgement at all! Maybe you feel some connection stir, maybe you see some subtle sign, but that's far from a given. Some times, most times, you pray and... that's it. You hope. Maybe it's answered, maybe not, you can't be sure. Lots of religions have structures that are supposed to increase your chances. Consecrated places, special offerings, a hierarchy of priests who have a more direct connection to leverage on your behalf, groups of adherents who can second and third and etc your prayer.

    Are Courts really that different? You have the hierarchy, the symbols, the places of power, the rituals. I see no reason why any Changeling, any time, any where can't attempt to Bargain with demi god entities, because the catch is this: If everybody can attempt it, what are you doing to make your would be patron notice you and take an interest? Just because anybody can ask doesn't mean everybody is going to be coming back with a holy writ forged in fire. Casual attempts are going to fail before they even start because they're ignored.

    Why don't Changelings do it all the time can be answered two (not mutually exclusive ways). 1st: They do, it just usually fails to get a response 2nd: The kind of deals the entity in question is interested in cutting come with much too steep a price for casual requests
    Since you are apparently new to this thread you have the potential excuse that you missed what I pointed out. Satchel does not. In the systems for forging the Mantle the very first sentence says that all the following mechanics assume that you found a willing entity already. In other words the invocation does not get their attention in the first place, nor is it like prayer.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Excess View Post

      Since you are apparently new to this thread you have the potential excuse that you missed what I pointed out. Satchel does not. In the systems for forging the Mantle the very first sentence says that all the following mechanics assume that you found a willing entity already. In other words the invocation does not get their attention in the first place, nor is it like prayer.
      I don t think that the quote "a willing entity" implies that you have already addressed it, it could also mean that if you start the invocation with an unwilling entity you fail, but an entity can in fact decide that it will listen during or after the invocation.
      Literature is full of people who bargains with entities that they ve never meet (es. Demonic summons) and i think that this logic could apply also to changelings.
      Last edited by Neos01; 03-16-2021, 11:51 AM.

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      • #33
        I was having a good time just sort of watching this nonsense, but now you have made me wonder something.

        Hey Excess? You do know that "entity" is not a game term, right? Your argument that a concept alone cannot serve as a court's patron because it lacks agency is severely undercut by the fact that literally the only example entities striking Bargains with changelings are concepts. Sure, the book spends an awful lot of word count before the systems describing all the things a changeling could strike a Bargain with, but once it gets to the actual rules, there is no "spirit noble of carousing" or whatever. It is just Carousing. It is just Secrets.

        Your headcanon does not have to be law, nor does your interpretation of the text. And neither does mine, or anyone else's. If you are just here to win an argument, or prove you know the most ✨lore✨, whatever, that is fine, you do you. Just do not be surprised when you don't convince anyone of anything, especially if you are trying to "gotcha" people with tortured or hyper-literal readings of the text.


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        • #34
          Wow, this thread is a clusterfuck.

          I have a real suggestion for this thread, but first a diversion-more for my sake than anything else-in as simple a comparative explanation as I can think of, that it is less accurate to consider the things that the Lost Bargain with as things like spirits and goetia (except for those times they do, but for our purposes we're mostly interested in the Patrons as they exist within Lost) and more akin to how the God-Machine is. In that instance, there is no singular being called the God-Machine from which all Infrastructure, Occult Matrices, and Outputs spring from, but the rather the God-Machine is the sum total of all Infrastructure, Occult Matrices, and Outputs. In the same vein, Spring is not some concrete individual being or entity, but is rather the sum totality of Spring and those things that make it up in the world, with the caveat that unlike the God-Machine, where if you can somehow successfully remove those things the God-machine is no more, so long as Spring can, will, and does come back, then Spring remains a power that can be connected to by the Wyrd even if it is not present in the world currently.

          But like I said, that's a distraction for my sake, not really for the thread. Here's what I really came in to point out and suggest:

          The conversation is starting to spiral, and more importantly the questions put forth in the original post have been more than sufficiently answered, regardless of the poster's satisfaction with the actual answers. Mayhaps we put the conversation down for now with this in mind.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 03-17-2021, 02:48 PM.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
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          • #35
            Originally posted by Excess View Post

            Since you are apparently new to this thread you have the potential excuse that you missed what I pointed out. Satchel does not. In the systems for forging the Mantle the very first sentence says that all the following mechanics assume that you found a willing entity already. In other words the invocation does not get their attention in the first place, nor is it like prayer.
            Don't moderate other posters. Take an infraction.

            Originally posted by SomethingFishy View Post
            I was having a good time just sort of watching this nonsense, but now you have made me wonder something.

            Hey Excess? You do know that "entity" is not a game term, right? Your argument that a concept alone cannot serve as a court's patron because it lacks agency is severely undercut by the fact that literally the only example entities striking Bargains with changelings are concepts. Sure, the book spends an awful lot of word count before the systems describing all the things a changeling could strike a Bargain with, but once it gets to the actual rules, there is no "spirit noble of carousing" or whatever. It is just Carousing. It is just Secrets.

            Your headcanon does not have to be law, nor does your interpretation of the text. And neither does mine, or anyone else's. If you are just here to win an argument, or prove you know the most ✨lore✨, whatever, that is fine, you do you. Just do not be surprised when you don't convince anyone of anything, especially if you are trying to "gotcha" people with tortured or hyper-literal readings of the text.
            Ditto.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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