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  • Non-Ephemeral Bargain Patrons

    So we know that Oak Ash and Thorn has made it clear that Court Bargains can be established with Ephemeral Entities as long as they are rank 6 or more. Now what I wondered here is what corporeal supernatural/supers who use a 1-10 scale as far as supernatural power attributes goes. Like Ascended Arch Masters are one of the examples listed and an ordinary Mummy is not enough, but I do wonder what other creatures could have enough metaphysical presence to do the trick.

    So far my very guesswork based list goes as follows:

    Upper Tier Horrors from the Core Book

    Strix in the 7-10 Shadow Potency Range

    Maaaaaybe Vampire Metuselahs but nothing less than that on the vampire end of things.

    What I am now wondering is what else could potentially do the trick here?

  • #2
    Incarnate Beasts could probably qualify. The powers an Incarnate wields are well beyond even a "regular" Lair 10 Beast and all have almost certainly established themselves as at least an urban legend in their chosen domain, granting them the necessary metaphysical weight

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    • #3
      The Horrors system is very open ended so some could probably work as patrons, but most (even at maxed Potency) would probably not work since they're basically just random local monsters.
      I don't see why Strix would work. Even at high Shadow Potency they're "just" the same vaguely owl-formed clouds of hateful smoke. Maybe at Shadow Potency 10 when they have a direct connection to a whole different realm.
      Greater Quashmallim are mentioned, and high-Ranking Supernal beings would definitely also qualify.
      For anything else, I think you'd need some special circumstances or modified templates (like an Archmage) for the Bargain to work.
      Beasts having achieved certain Inheritances, definitely, and anything is possible with the right Coil of the Dragon when it comes to vampires (but it would definitely have to be a rad Coil; not just any Coil would work). There's also mentions and/or descriptions of vampires with advanced templates in some 1e books.
      Demons having unlocked their Chipher and reached Hell would be thematically fitting, but unlike Beast Inheritances, it's incredibly underwhelming and doesn't really do much.
      Maybe a mummy having achieved Apotheosis? I just don't know enough to say anything for sure, so someone else would have to confirm or deny.
      Other than that I don't really know. Normal splats just doesn't work so whatever modification is needed is probably something that would fit in a late-game book or a Night Horror book. If Fae beings weren't barred I'd say changelings that have maxed an Entitlement would fit since they're fully realising and becoming a role that still exists independently of them. It's at least that kind of modification I'd expect from valid patrons when looking to the playable splats.
      Last edited by Tessie; 03-18-2021, 04:34 AM.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #4
        The God-Machine.

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        • #5
          Various Horrors could easily fit the bill, if they’re powerful enough to affect or intervene with the fae. The Courts empower their patrons and give them glamour just as the courtiers themselves are empowered by their patrons, so it makes sense that if an entity isn’t quite powerful enough as it is it could become so by the process. Horrors around Rank 7+ could do so, by my estimate.

          The only thing about taking a physical, non-conceptual entity as your patron as if that it leaves them vulnerable in the physical sense, much like any creature can be. That’s not to say that they’re helpless, but just as the The Swimming Hole itself could make a Court patron, it’s still a swimming hole that could be filled in by various landscaping vehicles and enough sand/rock.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
            Various Horrors could easily fit the bill, if they’re powerful enough to affect or intervene with the fae. The Courts empower their patrons and give them glamour just as the courtiers themselves are empowered by their patrons, so it makes sense that if an entity isn’t quite powerful enough as it is it could become so by the process. Horrors around Rank 7+ could do so, by my estimate.

            The only thing about taking a physical, non-conceptual entity as your patron as if that it leaves them vulnerable in the physical sense, much like any creature can be. That’s not to say that they’re helpless, but just as the The Swimming Hole itself could make a Court patron, it’s still a swimming hole that could be filled in by various landscaping vehicles and enough sand/rock.
            Given how symbol-based apparently everything is, are any supernatural entities really "non-conceptual"?

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            • #7
              I don't think strix can qualify. If something must be a metaphysical "step-up" from regular splats then a near-peak supernatural tolerance should not be enough. I don't think mere age would do it either. Vampire 2nd edition suggests again and again that elders are going through some metamorphosis. Perhaps one that finished could be eligible? I am already convinced that it is. As for some Inheritances possibly working for Beast, I think only Incarnation will do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Excess View Post

                Given how symbol-based apparently everything is, are any supernatural entities really "non-conceptual"?
                By “non-conceptual” I refer to beings who are measured as independently existing in some way. The Judges, Archmages, spirits, horrors and countless other powerful entities exist in some way that allows them to be interacted with in a way that elicits a reaction. These are the entities that the original post is asking about, specifically the kind that don’t exist on some form of Twilight.

                I honestly have no idea what you mean by “how symbol-based everything is”, unless you mean the various items or rituals that courtiers can adorn themselves with and act upon. That’s like wearing a label or logo of a place you work at or worship though, showing your devotion or place in the organization.

                tldr: Yes.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

                  By “non-conceptual” I refer to beings who are measured as independently existing in some way. The Judges, Archmages, spirits, horrors and countless other powerful entities exist in some way that allows them to be interacted with in a way that elicits a reaction. These are the entities that the original post is asking about, specifically the kind that don’t exist on some form of Twilight.

                  I honestly have no idea what you mean by “how symbol-based everything is”, unless you mean the various items or rituals that courtiers can adorn themselves with and act upon. That’s like wearing a label or logo of a place you work at or worship though, showing your devotion or place in the organization.

                  tldr: Yes.
                  Supernal realms, the hisil, the underworld, the Astral, the Primordial dream, so many symbols. I doubt that any occult thing in this world of darkness (or chronicles of darkness) is really unrelated to any symbol. I would be surprised if it was confirmed to be the case.

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                  • #10
                    "Most changelings can’t tell the difference between types of entities, anyway — whether it’s a spirit, an idigam, a Strix, or an Ochema doesn’t matter, and their Bargains all bestow the same general benefits."

                    Oak Ash and Thorn page 18

                    "In mechanical terms, ephemeral entities require Rank 6+ to qualify for a court Bargain, and other types of beings need to be a metaphysical step — or several — above protagonists. You can’t Bargain with a mummy, but a Judge will do. Ordinary ghosts aren’t powerful or fundamental enough, but a greater Kerberos? Now we’re talking. Nonephemeral beings with power ratings that go from 1 to 10 should be hovering around the top of their scale "

                    So which non-ephemeral supernatural beings fall under these qualifiers?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Caedus View Post
                      "Most changelings can’t tell the difference between types of entities, anyway — whether it’s a spirit, an idigam, a Strix, or an Ochema doesn’t matter, and their Bargains all bestow the same general benefits."

                      Oak Ash and Thorn page 18

                      "In mechanical terms, ephemeral entities require Rank 6+ to qualify for a court Bargain, and other types of beings need to be a metaphysical step — or several — above protagonists. You can’t Bargain with a mummy, but a Judge will do. Ordinary ghosts aren’t powerful or fundamental enough, but a greater Kerberos? Now we’re talking. Nonephemeral beings with power ratings that go from 1 to 10 should be hovering around the top of their scale "

                      So which non-ephemeral supernatural beings fall under these qualifiers?
                      Well as far as i know,
                      Archmages, Greater Quashmallim, the Judges, big Strix, big Horrors, maybe Inferno demons and in general creatures of the Lower depths, Ananke and Ochema of ascended beings or supernal gods, maybe big Hosts and Geryos, Beasts who has undergone Inheritances, maybe vampires of Belial s brood, maybe a Praecipitati, some kind of Infrastructures, Sin eaters who has undergone the perfect symbiosis with their geists (i don t remember how it is called)

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                      • #12
                        I could really see a "seasonal" cycle between an Azlu and Beshilu courts, with the Gauntlet of the freehold varying accordingly during the year, and the Crowns of the Rat king and Spider queen
                        Last edited by Neos01; 03-19-2021, 06:58 AM.

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                        • #13
                          There are a couple of vague references to such a state existing for werewolves.

                          A case could be made for mummies who’ve been rewarded by their judge with the sixth pillar of Akhu, the “divine soul.”

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                          • #14
                            A Ghost Wolf Tyrant perhaps. Assuming you can find one, a Pangaean would certainly work. For something particularly exotic/improbable, a Qliphoth.


                            The longer I study science the more I am convinced that it is functionally indistinguishable from what our ancestors would refer to as sorcery. And I would know, being both scientist and sorcerer.

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