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Are Hedgespun Tokens overpowered/underpriced? They seem huge for combat characters.

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  • Are Hedgespun Tokens overpowered/underpriced? They seem huge for combat characters.

    So, I can spend 3 Experiences on a Hedgespun Item token that is armor, and get +3 Armor(it seems a matter of debate where it gives General armor or General and Ballistic, but even only General armor is still really good). And another 3 Experiences on a Hedgespun weapon that does +3 Damage. That seems like a huuuuge bang for your buck Experiences wise for combat characters - and that's presumably on top of whatever mundane equipment bonuses you might already have. Definitely better on spending Experiences on any combat contract. Frankly also better than spending Experiences on the combat abilities of other splats, too.

    Yes, it has a drawback, but it isn't that bad.

    Is it as overpowered as it feels? Would you ever build a combat character who doesn't dump a measly 6 Experiences into Hedgespun weapon and armor at some point? As a ST, should I assume most combatant NPCs are kitted up with it?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wade L View Post
    Yes, it has a drawback, but it isn't that bad.
    The principal drawback is that the thing will disintegrate if you touch it with iron and any means of replacing it takes time that you're not going to have in immediate conflict.

    And I'd say that drawback matters less if you're in the Hedge, where most of the threats you're likely to encounter are also fae, but… Huntsmen have no issue carrying the stuff.

    "Combat characters" should be understood in the context that this is a game where you're a fugitive whose main enemies want taken alive and/or completely dissociated from reality. Being able to hit hard while drawing attention doesn't rate as highly as it would in, say, Werewolf.
    Last edited by Satchel; 03-23-2021, 12:35 AM.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • #3
      I've houseruled it that the Merit costs extra dots equal to the Availability rating of the item. That way characters can't get stupid good items for dirt cheap, and it limits the items you can hedgespin (how about a hedgespun nuke for just a couple Merit dots).

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      • #4
        Weapon damage modifiers are consistently treated as equal to equipment modifiers in all CofD games despite them being roughly three times as powerful per increase. It's offset by the fact that you're not actually increasing your chances of actually succeeding with an attack, but I've found that in general attacks do usually hit unless there's a noticeable discrepancy in combat potential or the defender is actively dodging.
        So yeah, it's pretty good and definitely something a combat character could consider investing in, unless they have other options:
        Two of my coplayers use Elemental Weapon which, if you have a good dice pool, can regularly grant +3L weapons; my previous Elemental Summer Courtier used Helio's Judgement which grants +[Mantle]L (in her case +4L), upgradeable to aggravated for 1 WP; or just a mundane weapon on the same tier like my current Ogre character just lugs around a big-ass +5L club. Of course, she can't actually lift it without first activating a Strength boosting Contract (Red Revenge pushes Strength up to 6) and uses her Kith Blessing to stove it away when not in use, but the weapon itself is a piece of mundane equipment and thus no XP spent on it at all.

        As for how common they are, it really depends on your game. In our current game (and my group is quite combat focused) I don't think we've encountered anyone who's had obviously hedgespun weapons or armour. The players simply have used other options that are available and enemy combatants have mostly been Briarwolves and some sort of elk-man who've used natural weapons. Someone has also attempted to have lightning strike the same guy twice, but that might've been a mage casting a spell rather than a changeling using a cool Contract.


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Shadowdragon View Post
          I've houseruled it that the Merit costs extra dots equal to the Availability rating of the item. That way characters can't get stupid good items for dirt cheap, and it limits the items you can hedgespin (how about a hedgespun nuke for just a couple Merit dots).
          The former is thematically weird and I don't like it since it favours simple and ugly but effective equipment rather than letting the players do something with style when they create new equipment from scratch within the magical realm of the Hedge, and the latter is already impossible because nukes either don't translate to game traits you can buy through Hedgespun Tokens or have traits that by far exceeds the +3 limit of Hedgespun Tokens.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Drawbacks are less about punishment and more about making things interesting. Most changeling powers are more about options than making something ever more powerful.

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            • #7
              For 6 Experience Points a combat character can run around with 3 Armor and 3 Weapon Damage worth of Hedgespun. For 3 Experience Points they can have Resources 3 and purchase an assault rifle or fire axe and full riot gear for the same 3 Armor and 3 Weapon Damage, local laws permitting.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by helel View Post
                For 6 Experience Points a combat character can run around with 3 Armor and 3 Weapon Damage worth of Hedgespun. For 3 Experience Points they can have Resources 3 and purchase an assault rifle or fire axe and full riot gear for the same 3 Armor and 3 Weapon Damage, local laws permitting.
                I mean, presumably your 3 point hedgespun weapon can be a hedgespun fire axe that does +6L... And you can have Hedgespun riot gear to get 6/5 (or 6/8 depending how you do increased armor bonuses) armor...

                If the hedgespun bonuses weren't allowed to be put on top of the existing item bonuses that'd indeed make them much milder.

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                • #9
                  My read of the Merit is that you simply get the bonus you pay for, altho I can see the alternative interpretation.

                  Even with the more generous take you're talking about spending 3 Experience Points for 3 Armor and Weapon Damage or twice the Experience for twice the bonus.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wade L View Post
                    I mean, presumably your 3 point hedgespun weapon can be a hedgespun fire axe that does +6L... And you can have Hedgespun riot gear to get 6/5 (or 6/8 depending how you do increased armor bonuses) armor...

                    If the hedgespun bonuses weren't allowed to be put on top of the existing item bonuses that'd indeed make them much milder.
                    If you just Hedgespin a piece of equipment you add the bonuses on top of whatever the equipment already does, but the bonus only applies for a single action or turn. Alternatively, you Hedgespin a completely new item with Availability no higher than successes spent, which seems to persist indefinitely, but its functionally mundane with no supernaturally high bonuses.

                    When you create a token you design its effect from scratch. In the case of Hedgespun Items, this means applying dot rating amount of benefits from the three listed on page 225, up to a maximum of three per type of benefit.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                      When you create a token you design its effect from scratch. In the case of Hedgespun Items, this means applying dot rating amount of benefits from the three listed on page 225, up to a maximum of three per type of benefit.
                      I definitely interperted the Extraordinary Equipment as being a bonus added onto whatever the base item type is. If instead it just establishes the bonus... Well, then I go from thinking the Merit is overpowered to thinking it isn't worth taking unless you really like the idea of having an item with a different Mask and Mein.

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                      • #12
                        This isn't exactly cannon, but the interpretation my group has always had of Hedgespun is that it's weak if you just want a simple item you could acquire in other ways but that it's value is in the fantastical material and physically impossible designs.

                        For example, a dress woven from flames might offer the same equipment bonus as a similar mortal design but its equipment bonus also helps the wearer resist extreme cold because its fire. Or imagine slightly psychic paper. It provides its bonus where you can take advantage of people seeing what they expect to see, whether it's the documents you claim will support your identity (bonus to disguise/infiltration) or the notes you wrote on it when listening in on those privateers (bonus to memory test).

                        Basically, imagine equipment that couldn't physically exist but which isn't magical beyond some simple equipment bonus to appropriate tests. That is your Hedgespun.

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