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Changeling 2.0 Brainspew 1: Kiths/Seemings

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  • Changeling 2.0 Brainspew 1: Kiths/Seemings

    I'll start off this experiment with a brainspew, to show you where we're thinking.

    We're sort of reversing the roles of Kiths and Seemings. When making a character, you pick a Kith, then you refine it with a Seeming. So, for example, if you're playing a Draconic, you're Draconic first. Then, you look at the Seemings. You might be a Draconic Fairest, a Draconic Ogre, a Draconic Elemental, a Draconic Darkling, or a Draconic Beast... each with its own slight stylistic difference. We're talking the difference between a majestic gold dragon, and a creepy black dragon.

    1) We will have a lot of Kiths. Not necessarily as many as all the 1e books combined, but that's a function of this model. Some old Kiths are kind of like facets of the same Kith now.

    2) Kiths will get a lot of space. They each will actually only need a small amount of wordcount. Basically a few sentence description, a short paragraph advantage, and a little section describing the six variants.

    3) In this model, Seemings will let you flavor your affinity for Contracts. Some Seemings will favor certain Contracts. Some will be unable to learn other Contracts.

    4) This also lets us use Kiths as a method of minor, often implied social organization.

    5) This means you can have a Motley full of a single Kith, each with a different aspect.

    6) This frontloads some of the choice. We're okay with that though, since a) this is part of building the mythology of your Durance (a new foundation of focus), and b) in our experience, choosing Kiths tends to be a big part of character creation anyway.

    7) We can balance out Kith advantages by making all of them a little more robust, since they're front-facing advantages. Kith advantages won't be "you get 9-again on a dice pool you'll never roll". Yawn. They'll be "you can do something that adds drama to the story."

    8) In play, most of us found that players were more interested than their Kiths than their Seemings. I really like the idea of letting Seeming flavor your Kith, not the other way around.

    9) If you haven't noticed, I like numbered lists.

    Consider yourself spewed.

    Again, I might not answer every question or address every concern. But I will read and consider all of them.

    I want to note the things I mentioned in my previous post, asking about the previews. Please take these into consideration.

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...views-thoughts
    Last edited by MachineIV; 08-18-2014, 12:55 AM. Reason: Added notes to help frame the conversation.


    David A Hill Jr
    Freelance Writer
    Independent Game Designer

  • #2
    This sounds great. The funny thing is, while I'd thought like... the only Changeling I ever got to play was a Bright One, and the obvious thought is, how do you do that with a Darkling? I figured there was no way, but the answer came almost immediately... if Bright Ones as Fairest are beacons of beautiful light... then Darklings would hunger for the light to fill part of the void inside of them. Ogres would be perhaps light as a painful and terrible blinding thing... Elementals are obvious... Beasts would be phosphorescence. Wizened would be like... lamp carriers or such. Light as a tool.

    I want to know more, and I'll think about it.



    ​When noise turns to silence, when colors dull and pale, when reality no longer makes sense, there shall you find me. There, in the dreams of the River of Faceless Millions, do I dwell.

    http://harenm.deviantart.com/gallery/ for my art.

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    • #3
      I'm loving the sound of all this. My Fairest Gristlegrinder likes the sound of this an awful lot. And stronger blessings? I love it.


      Remi. she/her. game designer.

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      • #4
        i) Are overarching seeming blessings and curses still a thing, or is each kith just getting a seeming-specific extra element?

        ii) How broad is the Contract lockout for seemings planned to be?

        iii) I feel like Beasts and Elementals are likely to be the most affected by the change to kiths-first, since those two seemings were most strongly defined/subdivided by their kiths (Wizened had almost as many corebook kiths, but had a more coherent core that the kiths mostly added a trade to). Swimmerskins and Waterborn seem like the easiest to map to the kith-primary approach, but things like Hunterhearts and Manikins seem a little more particular to their seemings, imagery-wise, than could be easily generalized or incorporated into a broader seeming-neutral kith. Forgetting "every 1e book" for a moment, are there likely to be fewer kiths in 2e's basic listing than were in the 1e corebook?

        iiia) If not, is this likely to owe more to preservation of existing kiths or generation of more wholesale-new general archetypes alongside merging conceptually-similar kiths from 1e?

        iiib) If so, how broadly can we expect kiths to work for different seemings?

        iv) Is multi-kithing or an analog still a thing?
        Last edited by Satchel; 08-17-2014, 11:57 PM.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #5
          I'm not sure I really care about which comes first, but I think I like the core idea of separate Seeming and Kith. Once the two are separate, which one is "core" and which is "refinement" is largely irrelevant from anything but a presentation standpoint. I'd only say keep Seeming first Kith second because I don't see a reason to change it.

          I'm not sure I like some Contracts being locked away. Why? Some Contracts having more hoops to jump through? Cool (like Court Contracts). Flat out no? Seems iffy.

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          • #6
            By and large, this reflects a trend that the forums and personal play have revealed again and again. The 3-Dot Dual Kith Merit is enormously popular since it allowed Kiths to cross Seeming boundaries. It also brings to mind certain kiths like Shadowsoul and a few others that often seemed like they were trying to allow a Seeming to tap into other seeming's archetypes, so again, good points there.

            I had a concern(How do you handle kith archetypes that seem inherently inclined toward a particular seeming, even with the new batch?), but I answered it myself(players will do the rule of cool, be it optimization, miming, just throwing stuff together, so variety will still exist), so....yeah, I'd call it a solid choice. Instead of picking a Fireheart and feeling stuck within being the tower of fire or needing to buy Dual Kith, I can decide if I want to be a salamander or a phoenix(Beast), Balrog or Jack o' Latern scarecrow(Darkling), Seraph(Fairest), Djinn(Fairest or Ogre), Eldjotnar(Ogre), or imp(Wizened) as well as the man-shaped inferno(Elemental).

            EDIT: Gonna echo Satchel's first and second questions.
            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-18-2014, 12:05 AM.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #7
              Hmm… nice. Obviously, some of the existing Kiths will need to be broadened in concept; in particular, the Beast and Elemental Kiths were conceived specifically with the Beast and Elemental Seeming in mind, and don’t generalize as nicely as some of the others do.

              Or rather, I wouldn’t mind seeing the Beast and Elemental Seemings (but not Kiths) go away, with “I’m a beast” or “I’m an elemental” being handled by choosing an animal-like or element-like Kith that’s either a Fairest (the noble stag or lion), a Darkling (a rat or some other nocturnal creature), a Wizened (CtD’s Pooka come to mind), or an Ogre (a bull or panther).


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              • #8
                Eh, I wouldn't do away with Beast or Elemental seemings. It's easier to make a Ripperhand Kith that translates well into Beasts(Predatory animals ala Hunterheart) or Darklings(Razorhands), as an example.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Feminine pronouns, please.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  i) Are overarching seeming blessings and curses still a thing, or is each kith just getting a seeming-specific extra element?
                  Not settled on it. We haven't even really discussed it. I am leaning toward Seemings flavoring Contracts, but not providing overarching advantages and penalties.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  ii) How broad is the Contract lockout for seemings planned to be?
                  We're not settled on it. We're actually discussing it right now. I can't do a great job of explaining it unless I explain the whole Contract philosophy. That'll take me some time. But in short:

                  Contracts will probably not be levels 1-5. They'll probably be individual powers, flavored by your Seeming. So like, Contract of Vainglory means something different to Fairest than it means to Ogres.

                  My current pitch is that every Contract can be used by five Seemings. One Seeming favors it. One Seeming is barred (or distinctly limited like an inferior arcanum) from it.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  iii) I feel like Beasts and Elementals are likely to be the most affected by the change to kiths-first, since those two seemings were most strongly defined/subdivided by their kiths (Wizened had almost as many corebook kiths, but had a more coherent core that the kiths mostly added a trade to). Swimmerskins and Waterborn seem like the easiest to map to the kith-primary approach, but things like Hunterhearts and Manikins seem a little more particular to their seemings, imagery-wise, than could be easily generalized or incorporated into a broader seeming-neutral kith. Forgetting "every 1e book" for a moment, are there likely to be fewer kiths in 2e's basic listing than were in the 1e corebook?
                  There should be more. I don't know which of my team is going to focus mostly on Kiths at this juncture. I need to find where their strengths are, and how much wordcount they need for a given Kith to really stand strong. But my goal is to have more.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  iiia) If not, is this likely to owe more to preservation of existing kiths or generation of more wholesale-new general archetypes alongside merging conceptually-similar kiths from 1e?
                  I'm going to give a lot of space to Kiths. This isn't really a thing of not giving stuff away yet; but it's going to come down to the writer's own ability. If they want to merge a lot of old Kiths, I could see the virtue in it. If they want to just rehash as much as possible within our new paradigm, that's cool too. This is one of those places where I'm not going to give a lot of strong direction; I want the writer to do what feels best when they're sitting at their desk actually digesting content.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  iiib) If so, how broadly can we expect kiths to work for different seemings?
                  I'm not sure I understand this question. I THINK I do, but I'm not sure. I think most Kiths will fit well with all Seemings. If they don't, I could see not including one in a given Kith's potential.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  iv) Is multi-kithing or an analog still a thing?
                  It could be. It's not something we've went into at length yet. But it's something we'll talk about soon. I want a nice, compelling option if we go for one. Ironically, the Kith/Seeming switch eliminated a lot of the dual kith questions we've had going in. A lot of players looking to dual kith were really settled by choosing a different Seeming's flavor for an existing Kith.


                  David A Hill Jr
                  Freelance Writer
                  Independent Game Designer

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by haren View Post
                    This sounds great. The funny thing is, while I'd thought like... the only Changeling I ever got to play was a Bright One, and the obvious thought is, how do you do that with a Darkling? I figured there was no way, but the answer came almost immediately... if Bright Ones as Fairest are beacons of beautiful light... then Darklings would hunger for the light to fill part of the void inside of them. Ogres would be perhaps light as a painful and terrible blinding thing... Elementals are obvious... Beasts would be phosphorescence. Wizened would be like... lamp carriers or such. Light as a tool.

                    I want to know more, and I'll think about it.

                    Yeah. This became a thing for me once I started considering Kiths. Most really sing with a few Seemings without even thinking about it at length. Once I looked over about twenty Kiths, it was a no-brainer.


                    David A Hill Jr
                    Freelance Writer
                    Independent Game Designer

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                      Hmm… nice. Obviously, some of the existing Kiths will need to be broadened in concept; in particular, the Beast and Elemental Kiths were conceived specifically with the Beast and Elemental Seeming in mind, and don’t generalize as nicely as some of the others do.

                      Or rather, I wouldn’t mind seeing the Beast and Elemental Seemings (but not Kiths) go away, with “I’m a beast” or “I’m an elemental” being handled by choosing an animal-like or element-like Kith that’s either a Fairest (the noble stag or lion), a Darkling (a rat or some other nocturnal creature), a Wizened (CtD’s Pooka come to mind), or an Ogre (a bull or panther).
                      Beast and Elemental are actually one of my big challenges conceptually right now. As I keep considering more and more content, I'm finding that the two overlap in a lot of ways. It's a case of something where I could merge them, I could change them, or I could just leave them the same. But just leaving them the same doesn't address the cognitive issues I'm hitting as I play at them.


                      David A Hill Jr
                      Freelance Writer
                      Independent Game Designer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MachineIV View Post
                        I'm not sure I understand this question. I THINK I do, but I'm not sure. I think most Kiths will fit well with all Seemings. If they don't, I could see not including one in a given Kith's potential.
                        The question, for the sake of clarity, is essentially "if 2e kiths are subject to some degree of collapsing from the 1e kiths (again using the aquatic kiths as an example) and this means a net reduction from the 39 kiths in 1e Core, are these liable to be concomitantly broader in terms of what the kith's thematic space is, with a hefty proportion of the kith's expression of a particular aesthetic/thematic coming from which seeming it's filtered through, as it did when people made characters with kiths from different seemings' lists in 1e's paradigm?"

                        Which you've pretty much answered satisfactorily; thanks.


                        Resident Lore-Hound
                        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                        • #13
                          So is no seeming still a thing? What happens if you happen to be one will that get any mention?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            I'm not sure I really care about which comes first, but I think I like the core idea of separate Seeming and Kith. Once the two are separate, which one is "core" and which is "refinement" is largely irrelevant from anything but a presentation standpoint. I'd only say keep Seeming first Kith second because I don't see a reason to change it.
                            I agree with this idea, though it's interesting to think about since this sounds like one of the more radical changes, compared with how Vampire, Mage and Werewolf didn't change that sort of fundamental mechanic.


                            I am no longer participating in the community. Please do not contact me about my previous work.

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                            • #15
                              A minor thing; please give us a water-breathing kith with no bullshit around it. No "drowning in air," no Glamour spend, no "hold breath longer," just let us breathe underwater.


                              Remi. she/her. game designer.

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