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What we can learn from Beast and others (Some opinions for 2e)

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  • #16
    I feel there may be a misunderstanding here, since I'm not sure how Beast would need to be finished to draw lessons from it; I am not suggesting remaking Changeling in the style of Beast, but merely to take lessons from its design. Beast was merely what tipped off this rambling, but I am not suggesting making Changeling into Beast; merely saying that these are the ideas it inspired and seeing what people think of them. That's why I only ever even reference it once in the entire post.

    I understand what you're saying and why, and my answer is that it's allowed for contrast between the two; to see what one succeeds at, even at a glance, and what the other fails at. I've said the things in that post long before anything from Beast came about, but never felt the urge to finally put pen to paper proper until I saw it so strongly contrasted.

    All of this is couched in what Changeling tries to do and where it falls down in its execution, and I only refer to other things to suggest where they succeed in similar attempts and why.

    If none of this changes your position, then all I can do is wish you luck in your other pursuits. I do that anyway, though. Best of luck!

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    • #17
      Why a thing is done is as important as how a thing is done.

      Like I said, I will respond with more, but for now the only things I can say with responsibility is what's been said already.


      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #18
        I would guess that a lot of what you [Axelgear] are asking for with Entitlements will actually be the role of the Courts. (There's only been the one-liner spoiler for Courts from someone who wasn't the writer, so I'm speculating massively here.)

        Originally posted by Illuminated Minutia View Post
        That's actually a better way of putting it, yeah. I do think a much more mercurial Clarity scale might be interesting. Maybe have some set up where you can drop more than one spot from a single roll if you botch it hard enough? IE - One minute you're doing fine and the next the whole house of cards starts to fall over.
        I like this idea.

        I think I'd offer this mechanic: when you roll for breaking point, you can put down wagers. If you fail the roll, you drop by the number of wagers plus one. If you succeed, you gain Clarity by the number you put down. Exceptional Success and Dramatic Failure don't change. To make this have a point, different levels of Clarity need to have vividly different perks and penalties; I'm not sure what those ought to be, but they're incentives. Maybe... perception bonuses, resistance to anything psychic, +1 Common Sense question (so you don't lose anything by buying the Merit), Composure or Resolve bonus?

        The problem with this idea is that there's no fluff associated with putting down a wager. Why is this particular dramatic moment somehow more likely to slide you further along the scale? Maybe tie it into meditation or dreams: if you've prepared yourself for this moment mentally, somehow, it's simply a bigger deal one way or another. So instead of just arbitrarily putting down chips, you have to bank them up first.


        I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
        An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
        Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
          I would guess that a lot of what you [Axelgear] are asking for with Entitlements will actually be the role of the Courts. (There's only been the one-liner spoiler for Courts from someone who wasn't the writer, so I'm speculating massively here.)



          I like this idea.

          I think I'd offer this mechanic: when you roll for breaking point, you can put down wagers. If you fail the roll, you drop by the number of wagers plus one. If you succeed, you gain Clarity by the number you put down. Exceptional Success and Dramatic Failure don't change. To make this have a point, different levels of Clarity need to have vividly different perks and penalties; I'm not sure what those ought to be, but they're incentives. Maybe... perception bonuses, resistance to anything psychic, +1 Common Sense question (so you don't lose anything by buying the Merit), Composure or Resolve bonus?

          The problem with this idea is that there's no fluff associated with putting down a wager. Why is this particular dramatic moment somehow more likely to slide you further along the scale? Maybe tie it into meditation or dreams: if you've prepared yourself for this moment mentally, somehow, it's simply a bigger deal one way or another. So instead of just arbitrarily putting down chips, you have to bank them up first.
          Well I like the idea about changelings betting their sanity and maybe directly with the wyrd (I think that's the right one) they make this bet but I'd say it requires a certain level of wyrd. Maybe three dots before you learnt or realized the trick.

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          • #20
            The more powerful Eldrich Orders don't suck, Lost Pantheon, Vizers, Black Apple, ect... are all good, and should be the standard for Entitlements for Changeling 2e, Global Changeling conspiracies that grant great power.

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            • #21
              I just wanted to add that the whole thing about The Hedge being this big ol' danger-zone in Hedge 1e is a bit over-exaggerated. Yes, I only just posted in another thread that there is no real carrot to tempt your character off the trods, but in keeping to them and building up a Hollow, it's a potential land of awesome. Your character can do dream-magic in The Hedge, get a Hollow with some hobkin or warding and you have no issues to give it a shot. That's not even going into getting some good old bits of Goblin Fruit (I do believe boosting these up some may help more venture in).

              I get annoyed when I make an Oneiromancy character and there's always at least one player who will not touch the Hedge with a barge-pole or want to do anything fae related. Brings me to my second point;

              There does need to be some kind of mechanical effect of keeping the balance between fae and human stuff. It's mentioned in the Clarity parts of 1e that a Changeling cannot just live as a mortal, the pull of fae stuff is just too wondrous to completely ignore. However there's nothing in the current Clarity breaking points or any mechanical effect that justifies this. Infact Clarity as it stands now penalises your character for not spending enough time with humans. And then exposing yourself to a mortal also happens to be a breaking point, so why make Pacts with humans and ensorcel them for boons that are generally balanced due to the Pledges alone?
              There needs to be some benefit of fae-stuff addiction and how giving into that on occasion is good for Clarity or whatever 2e will do to have the balance kept between fae and human. Because right now, there are too many players playing changelings scared to really do anything meaningful with the abilities they have and venture into the Hedge, when doing both is super-fun, for me anyway.

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              • #22
                Where does this thing about the Hedge being super dangerous even come from? It's a place to discover Goblin Fruit, Tokens, potential new allies, find lost secrets, and so on. You need a Dramatic Failure on a navigation roll to have an unfortunate run-in with a True Fae. And that only has a chance to happen if you go off the path, from memory. It is dangerous, yes, but if you know your local Hedge and travel in a group I would even go so far as to call the Hedge deadly.

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                • #23
                  A dramatic failure on a single roll can have you meet one of the most terrifying features of the setting, and you're questioning where the sensation of danger comes from?

                  More seriously, the short answer is goblins. Everything is described as being waiting to kill you, or at least cheat you out of your stuff. The Hedge is never described as safe. A section on building Hollows in Rites of Spring reminds STs and players alike that dangerous goblin-beasts or even outright Keepers may wander in unannounced because that just happens. There's birds that want to impale you, carnivorous plants with lures like crying people, etc.

                  There's nothing described that isn't a trap in some form. If you want me to get textual references, I can when I have more time.

                  In most games, this is fine, because Mages hunt dangerous ruins for awesome artifacts or secrets, and Werewolves have their duty and what-not, but many Changelings just kinda wanna survive and have had A Bad Experience with fae magic. Many of them never want to deal with it again. So what is there about the Hedge that should - nay, could in many cases - lure them in if it's nothing but danger, death, and disaster?

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                  • #24
                    Except there are Merits where you can train up, befriend and tame hobgoblins. Also you can use Hob kin and Hollow:Warding to keep ne'erdowells out of your Hollow. Still think it's not safe? Put a Ace of Spades Token over the lock.

                    Again, raises my point of there needing to be a stronger carrot when going off the trods (you're more or less safe on the trods) and also a mechanical effect of needing to balance the fae with the human. Changelings are supposed to feel the pull to experience fae-stuff because of it's unforgettable wonder even if they know it can be bad too. I'm 99.9% sure this is mentioned around the Clarity stuff in the corebook, but it never got an effect. It's understandable for Winter to shy from the Hedge, but the other Courts not so much. Even a Winter Courtier may want to retreat to their own Hollow at some point too. I'm sure it's noted also that Winter courtiers (I think in their Court write-up) tend to keep more than one Hollow and flit between them to stay hidden and harder to find.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                      A dramatic failure on a single roll can have you meet one of the most terrifying features of the setting, and you're questioning where the sensation of danger comes from?
                      Well, the nature of game mechanics means that a Dramatic Failure has a 1/10 chance of happening in a situation where you're rolling 0 or less dice, meaning anyone with a basic level of competence under a minimal number of penalties will never have it happen to them. That's literally a 0% chance in most circumstances, and if you're not good at navigating the Hedge, then yeah, I wouldn't suggest you go there. For the same reason I wouldn't normally suggest characters attempt something they have no skill at.

                      Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                      More seriously, the short answer is goblins. Everything is described as being waiting to kill you, or at least cheat you out of your stuff. The Hedge is never described as safe. A section on building Hollows in Rites of Spring reminds STs and players alike that dangerous goblin-beasts or even outright Keepers may wander in unannounced because that just happens. There's birds that want to impale you, carnivorous plants with lures like crying people, etc.

                      There's nothing described that isn't a trap in some form. If you want me to get textual references, I can when I have more time.

                      In most games, this is fine, because Mages hunt dangerous ruins for awesome artifacts or secrets, and Werewolves have their duty and what-not, but many Changelings just kinda wanna survive and have had A Bad Experience with fae magic. Many of them never want to deal with it again. So what is there about the Hedge that should - nay, could in many cases - lure them in if it's nothing but danger, death, and disaster?
                      Plenty of Hobgoblins are friendly, or at least ambivalent towards Changelings. Goblin Markets, Goblin Fruit, Tokens, Hollows, and a myriad other benefits await characters will to take a risk and explore the Hedge. There are plenty of dangers, but that's to be expected. The Hedge is basically a wilderness. It becomes dramatically less dangerous if you travel in company and know your local Hedge. Many dangers described can be anticipated, avoided, or otherwise mitigated so long as you know what species of local Hobgoblin you have to contend with and are prepared to encounter them.

                      And besides, most Changelings aren't actually looking to have nothing to do with the fae world again. If that were the case, they would either be isolated loners avoiding the rest of the Freehold or else be members of the Winter Court. There is an entire default Court dedicated almost solely to the exploration of the fae world and the occult, and another Court with a massive vested interest in combating the dangers of the fae world.

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                      • #26
                        To give some thoughts on this, now that we have more available,

                        Its worth noting the origin of Changelings is Truama. 2E may have changed aspects of that, but that influence is still there in regards to Changelings, and their related stat, Clarity. After all, the only reason they became Changelings was because they were kidnapped by the Gentry, and in 2nd Edition, get a lot of their power from escaping. Either way, that basically ties their entire new identity to misery.

                        To give an equivalent, imagine if to become a Werewolf, rather than being born with it, you were locked in a basement for six months, beaten every day, starved, and had numerous other tortures done over that period. Would you really want to do things involving Werewolves afterwards, if all you associate it with is horrific pain and suffering?

                        Yes, the Fae side can be beautiful, but they pay dearly to have access to that. Outside of Prometheans, who its worth noting have the over-arching motivation of ending their present condition, none of the other splats have to go through immense suffering to become what they are.

                        Now, this may all be obvious, but I'm only bringing it up because its the reason it makes no sense to make Clarity act like Harmony. I know that's already been beat into the ground to some extent, but... well, it deserves to be hammered in.

                        To me, the main reason Changelings would want to indulge in Fae magic, for example, is to fight attempts by Gentry to drag them back, or otherwise defend themselves from the World of Darkness as a whole. Yes, I realize there are Changeling abilities that aren't directly connected to this, such as say, enhancing someone's luck for art or what have you, however, even those abilities can be harnessed for the above. And while Changelings may not solely use their magic for the aforementioned purpose, I would argue it'd be an overarching purpose.

                        By contrast, Werewolves, from what I understand of them, use their abilities primarily to keep the Spirit world in line, preserve their Pack, and engage Werewolves from the opposite faction. Yes, self preservation is involved in that, and I'm sure individual werewolves may have that motivation, but it isn't their highest, or over-arching motivation, as a group. I'd argue to some extent, that is the case with Changelings.
                        Mind you, Changelings need to acknowledge their Fae sides, but that's to avoid slipping into denial, and, again, so they can use their magic to defend themselves from say, the Gentry.
                        Last edited by Killer300; 05-05-2015, 01:16 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Killer300 View Post
                          To give some thoughts on this, now that we have more available,

                          Its worth noting the origin of Changelings is Trauma.
                          There ya go champ.


                          Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            There ya go champ.
                            Wouldn't the element of the Gentry make this abuse?

                            With that said, that is true for 2E, which is why I mentioned it changed aspects of it.

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                            • #29
                              Abuse is, funnily enough, a form of trauma.

                              It's not like that invalidates what you're saying, buuuut I've got the distinction heavy on my mind right now.


                              Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                                Abuse is, funnily enough, a form of trauma.

                                It's not like that invalidates what you're saying, buuuut I've got the distinction heavy on my mind right now.
                                Fair point.

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