What we can learn from Beast and others (Some opinions for 2e)

[Azahul]

A dramatic failure on a single roll can have you meet one of the most terrifying features of the setting, and you're questioning where the sensation of danger comes from?

Well, the nature of game mechanics means that a Dramatic Failure has a 1/10 chance of happening in a situation where you're rolling 0 or less dice, meaning anyone with a basic level of competence under a minimal number of penalties will never have it happen to them. That's literally a 0% chance in most circumstances, and if you're not good at navigating the Hedge, then yeah, I wouldn't suggest you go there. For the same reason I wouldn't normally suggest characters attempt something they have no skill at.

More seriously, the short answer is goblins. Everything is described as being waiting to kill you, or at least cheat you out of your stuff. The Hedge is never described as safe. A section on building Hollows in Rites of Spring reminds STs and players alike that dangerous goblin-beasts or even outright Keepers may wander in unannounced because that just happens. There's birds that want to impale you, carnivorous plants with lures like crying people, etc.

There's nothing described that isn't a trap in some form. If you want me to get textual references, I can when I have more time.

In most games, this is fine, because Mages hunt dangerous ruins for awesome artifacts or secrets, and Werewolves have their duty and what-not, but many Changelings just kinda wanna survive and have had A Bad Experience with fae magic. Many of them never want to deal with it again. So what is there about the Hedge that should - nay, could in many cases - lure them in if it's nothing but danger, death, and disaster?

Plenty of Hobgoblins are friendly, or at least ambivalent towards Changelings. Goblin Markets, Goblin Fruit, Tokens, Hollows, and a myriad other benefits await characters will to take a risk and explore the Hedge. There are plenty of dangers, but that's to be expected. The Hedge is basically a wilderness. It becomes dramatically less dangerous if you travel in company and know your local Hedge. Many dangers described can be anticipated, avoided, or otherwise mitigated so long as you know what species of local Hobgoblin you have to contend with and are prepared to encounter them.

And besides, most Changelings aren't actually looking to have nothing to do with the fae world again. If that were the case, they would either be isolated loners avoiding the rest of the Freehold or else be members of the Winter Court. There is an entire default Court dedicated almost solely to the exploration of the fae world and the occult, and another Court with a massive vested interest in combating the dangers of the fae world.

[wander]

Except there are Merits where you can train up, befriend and tame hobgoblins. Also you can use Hob kin and Hollow:Warding to keep ne'erdowells out of your Hollow. Still think it's not safe? Put a Ace of Spades Token over the lock.

Again, raises my point of there needing to be a stronger carrot when going off the trods (you're more or less safe on the trods) and also a mechanical effect of needing to balance the fae with the human. Changelings are supposed to feel the pull to experience fae-stuff because of it's unforgettable wonder even if they know it can be bad too. I'm 99.9% sure this is mentioned around the Clarity stuff in the corebook, but it never got an effect. It's understandable for Winter to shy from the Hedge, but the other Courts not so much. Even a Winter Courtier may want to retreat to their own Hollow at some point too. I'm sure it's noted also that Winter courtiers (I think in their Court write-up) tend to keep more than one Hollow and flit between them to stay hidden and harder to find.

[Axelgear]

A dramatic failure on a single roll can have you meet one of the most terrifying features of the setting, and you're questioning where the sensation of danger comes from?

More seriously, the short answer is goblins. Everything is described as being waiting to kill you, or at least cheat you out of your stuff. The Hedge is never described as safe. A section on building Hollows in Rites of Spring reminds STs and players alike that dangerous goblin-beasts or even outright Keepers may wander in unannounced because that just happens. There's birds that want to impale you, carnivorous plants with lures like crying people, etc.

There's nothing described that isn't a trap in some form. If you want me to get textual references, I can when I have more time.

In most games, this is fine, because Mages hunt dangerous ruins for awesome artifacts or secrets, and Werewolves have their duty and what-not, but many Changelings just kinda wanna survive and have had A Bad Experience with fae magic. Many of them never want to deal with it again. So what is there about the Hedge that should - nay, could in many cases - lure them in if it's nothing but danger, death, and disaster?

[Azahul]

Where does this thing about the Hedge being super dangerous even come from? It's a place to discover Goblin Fruit, Tokens, potential new allies, find lost secrets, and so on. You need a Dramatic Failure on a navigation roll to have an unfortunate run-in with a True Fae. And that only has a chance to happen if you go off the path, from memory. It is dangerous, yes, but if you know your local Hedge and travel in a group I would even go so far as to call the Hedge deadly.

[wander]

I just wanted to add that the whole thing about The Hedge being this big ol' danger-zone in Hedge 1e is a bit over-exaggerated. Yes, I only just posted in another thread that there is no real carrot to tempt your character off the trods, but in keeping to them and building up a Hollow, it's a potential land of awesome. Your character can do dream-magic in The Hedge, get a Hollow with some hobkin or warding and you have no issues to give it a shot. That's not even going into getting some good old bits of Goblin Fruit (I do believe boosting these up some may help more venture in).

I get annoyed when I make an Oneiromancy character and there's always at least one player who will not touch the Hedge with a barge-pole or want to do anything fae related. Brings me to my second point;

There does need to be some kind of mechanical effect of keeping the balance between fae and human stuff. It's mentioned in the Clarity parts of 1e that a Changeling cannot just live as a mortal, the pull of fae stuff is just too wondrous to completely ignore. However there's nothing in the current Clarity breaking points or any mechanical effect that justifies this. Infact Clarity as it stands now penalises your character for not spending enough time with humans. And then exposing yourself to a mortal also happens to be a breaking point, so why make Pacts with humans and ensorcel them for boons that are generally balanced due to the Pledges alone?
There needs to be some benefit of fae-stuff addiction and how giving into that on occasion is good for Clarity or whatever 2e will do to have the balance kept between fae and human. Because right now, there are too many players playing changelings scared to really do anything meaningful with the abilities they have and venture into the Hedge, when doing both is super-fun, for me anyway.

[Omegaphallic]

The more powerful Eldrich Orders don't suck, Lost Pantheon, Vizers, Black Apple, ect... are all good, and should be the standard for Entitlements for Changeling 2e, Global Changeling conspiracies that grant great power.

[Mr.F.I.X.]

I would guess that a lot of what you [Axelgear] are asking for with Entitlements will actually be the role of the Courts. (There's only been the one-liner spoiler for Courts from someone who wasn't the writer, so I'm speculating massively here.)



I like this idea.

I think I'd offer this mechanic: when you roll for breaking point, you can put down wagers. If you fail the roll, you drop by the number of wagers plus one. If you succeed, you gain Clarity by the number you put down. Exceptional Success and Dramatic Failure don't change. To make this have a point, different levels of Clarity need to have vividly different perks and penalties; I'm not sure what those ought to be, but they're incentives. Maybe... perception bonuses, resistance to anything psychic, +1 Common Sense question (so you don't lose anything by buying the Merit), Composure or Resolve bonus?

The problem with this idea is that there's no fluff associated with putting down a wager. Why is this particular dramatic moment somehow more likely to slide you further along the scale? Maybe tie it into meditation or dreams: if you've prepared yourself for this moment mentally, somehow, it's simply a bigger deal one way or another. So instead of just arbitrarily putting down chips, you have to bank them up first.

Well I like the idea about changelings betting their sanity and maybe directly with the wyrd (I think that's the right one) they make this bet but I'd say it requires a certain level of wyrd. Maybe three dots before you learnt or realized the trick.

[Errol216]

I would guess that a lot of what you [Axelgear] are asking for with Entitlements will actually be the role of the Courts. (There's only been the one-liner spoiler for Courts from someone who wasn't the writer, so I'm speculating massively here.)

That's actually a better way of putting it, yeah. I do think a much more mercurial Clarity scale might be interesting. Maybe have some set up where you can drop more than one spot from a single roll if you botch it hard enough? IE - One minute you're doing fine and the next the whole house of cards starts to fall over.

I like this idea.

I think I'd offer this mechanic: when you roll for breaking point, you can put down wagers. If you fail the roll, you drop by the number of wagers plus one. If you succeed, you gain Clarity by the number you put down. Exceptional Success and Dramatic Failure don't change. To make this have a point, different levels of Clarity need to have vividly different perks and penalties; I'm not sure what those ought to be, but they're incentives. Maybe... perception bonuses, resistance to anything psychic, +1 Common Sense question (so you don't lose anything by buying the Merit), Composure or Resolve bonus?

The problem with this idea is that there's no fluff associated with putting down a wager. Why is this particular dramatic moment somehow more likely to slide you further along the scale? Maybe tie it into meditation or dreams: if you've prepared yourself for this moment mentally, somehow, it's simply a bigger deal one way or another. So instead of just arbitrarily putting down chips, you have to bank them up first.

[ArcaneArts]

Why a thing is done is as important as how a thing is done.

Like I said, I will respond with more, but for now the only things I can say with responsibility is what's been said already.

[Axelgear]

I feel there may be a misunderstanding here, since I'm not sure how Beast would need to be finished to draw lessons from it; I am not suggesting remaking Changeling in the style of Beast, but merely to take lessons from its design. Beast was merely what tipped off this rambling, but I am not suggesting making Changeling into Beast; merely saying that these are the ideas it inspired and seeing what people think of them. That's why I only ever even reference it once in the entire post.

I understand what you're saying and why, and my answer is that it's allowed for contrast between the two; to see what one succeeds at, even at a glance, and what the other fails at. I've said the things in that post long before anything from Beast came about, but never felt the urge to finally put pen to paper proper until I saw it so strongly contrasted.

All of this is couched in what Changeling tries to do and where it falls down in its execution, and I only refer to other things to suggest where they succeed in similar attempts and why.

If none of this changes your position, then all I can do is wish you luck in your other pursuits. I do that anyway, though. Best of luck!

[ArcaneArts]

I understand that you may have heard some of these words before, but I'd appreciate it if you actually gave a look-over to what I'm saying and see what you think. I'm not (or I don't think I am) trying to slap in place other game's dynamics to fill apparent holes so much as I hope I am taking lessons from them to try and make something better. I greatly enjoy hearing other's opinions and, while I understand you might be busy at the moment, I would appreciate it if you did actually go through my suggestions and see what you think.

If you still don't like it, that's fine, but I hope what I've said deserves more than an off-hand remark.

I've read it before hand, and I should make it clear that my ability to respond properly is...restrained somewhat. I do intend to go through my own notes about Entitlements and respond in someway to the ideas at work in Changeling.

But as it comes to comparing things to Beast...well, we just don't know enough at this point. We know some of the forms, but without a greater picture about why Beast does what it does in relation to it's greater self, it's risky to draw ideas from it as a informant on Changeling, and what's more is that I think the ideas that perfect Changeling should be drawn from a critical analysis of Changeling in and of itself first anyways.

There's some other minor reasons I haven't responded yet(like finishing up FMA: Brotherhood, planning for two games, searching for a job, etc.), but predominantly it comes down an innate skepticism of the premise leaning against a desire to bring my full academic bore to the conversation. The only things I can say before that can be nothing more than cautionary tales.

[Nyrufa]

I'm not saying the benefits of being a Changeling aren't appealing (they're pretty damn awesome). It's what it took to get those benefits and maintain them that's the scary part. If you want to maintain balance, just join the Autumn Court. They seem like they're the scientists and sorcerers of the Freeholds, studying and developing their Fae abilities to better combat the True Fae. Oh, but then you draw your power from terror... now how do you suppose you're going to get a regular supply of that?

[Illuminated Minutia]

That's actually a better way of putting it, yeah. I do think a much more mercurial Clarity scale might be interesting. Maybe have some set up where you can drop more than one spot from a single roll if you botch it hard enough? IE - One minute you're doing fine and the next the whole house of cards starts to fall over.

[Axelgear]

I agree with this. Faerie isn't something you really want to be a part of. Its more of a necessity.

I disagree with this. There's nothing about Arcadia that is a necessity. A Changeling who has returned to the world can, as the Winter Court's members sometimes try to do, attempt to have as little to do with it as possible. They can choose not to use their Contracts, not to use Glamour, not to make Pledges, etc., and live entirely mundane and mortal lives to the best of the ability their new state allows.

Changelings can do this, but they don't. They don't because Faerie is alluring. There is a heady thrill to tasting glamour; to consuming emotions and turning it into power; to commanding the flame to dance and the wind to blow. Pledges give you power and power lets you do things you never dreamed possible. Windwings remember what it was to fly, Mirrorskins understand the beat of every actor's heart, and Artists shall know the joy of creation (tee hee). They suffered horribly, but their suffering gave them new perspective; it showed them a beauty they perhaps never otherwise imagined possible.

I'm not saying I agree with the notion that Clarity should be a sliding scale about finding balance - it might best be served as a readily sliding scale to represent a mind as brittle as glass, but it shouldn't be about balance, as I've said already - but Faerie shouldn't be about necessity either; it should be about temptation. It should be the offering of a needle of opiates, or to go riding dangerously down a coastal highway on a motorbike at unsafe speeds. It should be the chance to go parachuting or sneak into a zoo at night to try and pet a lion. Foolhardy and inadvisable, maybe, but an experience you'll never forget for the rest of your (possibly short) life that might change your identity forever.

Arcadia should be your most wonderful dreams as often as your greatest nightmare. Preferably until the two are one and the same.

As for the rest of this thread, I'm gonna keep it simple and just say that we should probably wait for Beast to come out before looking at it, and of course my old mantra of "You can't solve Changeling's problems with another game, you can only use them to inform decisions (and even that isn't preferable)"

I understand that you may have heard some of these words before, but I'd appreciate it if you actually gave a look-over to what I'm saying and see what you think. I'm not (or I don't think I am) trying to slap in place other game's dynamics to fill apparent holes so much as I hope I am taking lessons from them to try and make something better. I greatly enjoy hearing other's opinions and, while I understand you might be busy at the moment, I would appreciate it if you did actually go through my suggestions and see what you think.

If you still don't like it, that's fine, but I hope what I've said deserves more than an off-hand remark.

[ArcaneArts]

As for the rest of this thread, I'm gonna keep it simple and just say that we should probably wait for Beast to come out before looking at it, and of course my old mantra of "You can't solve Changeling's problems with another game, you can only use them to inform decisions (and even that isn't preferable)"