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[Idea] Changelings like Grimm series Wesen?

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  • [Idea] Changelings like Grimm series Wesen?

    In TV series Grimm we have main character that is police detective seeing true face of various monsters called generally Wesen - that looks a lot like changelings and their Mask thing. That those beings are also connected to stories that Grimm Brothers collected, so they are clear associations with fairy tales. ( I even suspect as series is from 2011 and CtL is from 2007 that were some heavy "inspirations" for the TV show... )

    Back to the topic - Wesen in Grimm series have very complex "breed relations" - Bees hate Hags, Wolfblooded hunt on Swinepersons. This kind a things. - They also are very "true" to their myths - Wolfblooded have powerful killer instincts. Rats are socially marginalized but greatly communicate with one another.

    Question is simple - Is there a good way to reflect this kind associations between changelings? Maybe some shared Kiths stereotypes? How Courts can reflect "wild nature" of Wolfblooded, for example?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-15-2016, 12:39 PM.


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  • #2
    I've personally been viewing Grimm as a potential variant world for a future Beast: the Primordial game.
    Still, wesen as changelings could totally work, with a special focus on Beast Seemings.
    Keep in mind that the royal families are human, most likely defunct hunters that have focused more on political power than hunting. Grimms would be hunters more in tune with their abilities, with supernatural endowments as inherited traits rather than gained from engagement with any community or power.
    There's no hedge, no Arcadia in the show. You would have to work through that.
    Otherwise, I'd suggest ditching the courts.
    You would also have to adjust how harvesting glamour worked: the wesen from the show seem compelled to enact certain rituals, similar to a spirit's bans. This is another point where I think Beast better serves as an analogue for Grimm, but you could certainly rule that certain kiths offer glamour in exchange for following a given compulsion. Taken to its logical conclusion, this would adjust the behavior of each subtype, and result in communities and interactions like those in the show.
    Two things: when a wesen woges (transforms), most people cannot see it unless they choose. This is supposed to be what really makes grimms special. How do you think you would work through that mechanically?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      I've personally been viewing Grimm as a potential variant world for a future Beast: the Primordial game.
      I'm interested how you envision this, as in BtP Begotten do not show their "monster face".

      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      Still, wesen as changelings could totally work, with a special focus on Beast Seemings.
      Yes, I was thinking Beast or the Dark Eras proposed Grimm Seeming, as they adhere to their stories.

      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      There's no hedge, no Arcadia in the show. You would have to work through that.
      I was proposing "let's use the Grimm series idea on Kiths relations in normal Changeling game" than "let's rework TV series world as it is". More inspiration in normal CtL game than making "Grimm RPG".

      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      Otherwise, I'd suggest ditching the courts.
      I love Courts, specifically Seasonal ones! Would rather incorporate them somehow in this whole idea...

      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      You would also have to adjust how harvesting glamour worked: the wesen from the show seem compelled to enact certain rituals, similar to a spirit's bans. This is another point where I think Beast better serves as an analogue for Grimm, but you could certainly rule that certain kiths offer glamour in exchange for following a given compulsion. Taken to its logical conclusion, this would adjust the behavior of each subtype, and result in communities and interactions like those in the show.
      "Being your Kith's story" as Glamour generation? I like this!

      Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
      Two things: when a wesen woges (transforms), most people cannot see it unless they choose. This is supposed to be what really makes grimms special. How do you think you would work through that mechanically?
      TV series Grimm's are fey mortal hunters with hereditary Pledge to see past Mask. I even proposed them as Compact on Hunter forum.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post


        I love Courts, specifically Seasonal ones! Would rather incorporate them somehow in this whole idea...



        "Being your Kith's story" as Glamour generation? I like this!
        Since your mostly going for inspiration from Grimm, I would combine these. Use the 2e Court Creation System to make the Wesen Courts. That way they gain Glamour and have Approches related to those rituals.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post
          Use the 2e Court Creation System to make the Wesen Courts. That way they gain Glamour and have Approches related to those rituals.
          (Seeing only 6 episodes of first season ) But for now it seems like each Wesen kind would have it's own Court! It's like having Court for each Kith in play...


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          • #6
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

            (Seeing only 6 episodes of first season ) But for now it seems like each Wesen kind would have it's own Court! It's like having Court for each Kith in play...

            Well yeah, that would get crazy pretty quick, there are lots of types of Wesen eventually, but you could group them for ease. Predators, Nesters, kinda like that.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              I'm interested how you envision this, as in BtP Begotten do not show their "monster face".
              I envision me looking at that rule, sighing, and throwing it in the trash or as a default setting heavily modified. I'd craft full and partial transformation rules, probably using merits to equate degrees of transformation with Satiety. I'd probably also tie Hungers more in with myths and actual cautionary tales, rather than the stuff presented in the book.

              Or, I could use this.
              Mythic Form (edited from PenDraGon's work)

              In times of great stress, great need, or great hunger Beasts can shed their human body to become living embodiment of the Horror they have inside themselves, albeit at great cost. To invoke this form the Beast must go down one full level of Satiety (going from high to medium, medium to low, etc.), taking any appropriate conditions, and as long as they are not Ravenous they cannot gain further Satiety for the remainder of the scene. Beasts who expend all their Satiety normally are at risk of assuming this form involuntarily. Any time a Beast with the Ravenous Condition encounters a stimulus for their Hunger they must roll their remaining unspent willpower points, on a failure they assume their Mythic Form with a focused goal to feed. A character at maximum Satiety cannot use Mythic Form.
              System: In Mythic Form a Beast becomes the physical embodiment of her internal soul. Her true form and Atavisms become visible to onlookers, while her human body fades and twists into the new form. While in this form the Beast uses her Mythic Traits* (see note below), and treats all Atavisms as though she had spent Satiety to power them. However, this power comes at a price. For one the Beast must single-mindedly pursue a single purpose, ignoring all other interests. This isn't like Death Rage or Frenzy, the Beast retains her sentience, ability to reason, plot and even converse, but she will be focused upon whatever cause brought her to use Mythic Form in the first place; rolls to perform actions that do not help her attain this goal suffer a -4 penalty. Second, the Beast becomes a magnet for Heroes, granting an automatic success to any Hero attempting to find her through Heroic Stalking. Mythic Form lasts until the end of the scene, or until the Beast flees into her Lair.

              Mythic Traits: The Horror, instead of gaining [Lair * 2] points to spend between her Attributes and size, adds her Lair dots to all Dice Pools, as well as two of her choice between her Size, Defense, Initiative, and Speed. She applies her full defense vs Firearms, and cannot suffer Conditions that make no sense in her new form, such as Arm Wrack on a giant snake.
              Last edited by Necrophear; 03-14-2017, 12:48 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                I'm interested how you envision this, as in BtP Begotten do not show their "monster face".

                Well, there is a Nightmare that allows them to do so.

                Behold, My True Form is one of the basic nightmares in the core book, but it inflicts damage upon your victims because of how shocking it is to behold.


                But yeah, Aside from the shapeshifting magical creatures, Grimm doesn't really have much in the way that's similar to Changeling. I think Black Claw is the first and only example we've seen of a large scale Wesen organization. Most of them seem to be off doing their own thing, or sticking within blood related family groups. Which would make the vast majority of them Courtless.

                Also in the series, the primary antagonist for the Wesen is the Grimm, itself. They're the boogeymen to these creatures, and the mere mention of their presence causes them to hulk out and initiate their fight or flight response. There's not really a vast, otherworldly power threatening the Wesen that could be portrayed through Changeling. But the nature of a Grimm, or a collective group of Grimm would make for passable Heroes where Beast is concerned.


                Originally posted by Necrophear View Post

                I envision me looking at that rule, sighing, and throwing it in the trash or as a default setting heavily modified. I'd craft full and partial transformation rules, probably using merits to equate degrees of transformation with Satiety. I'd probably also tie Hungers more in with myths and actual cautionary tales, rather than the stuff presented in the book.

                Or, I could use this.
                Mythic Form (edited from PenDraGon's work)

                In times of great stress, great need, or great hunger Beasts can shed their human body to become living embodiment of the Horror they have inside themselves, albeit at great cost. To invoke this form the Beast must go down one full level of Satiety (going from high to medium, medium to low, etc.), taking any appropriate conditions, and as long as they are not Ravenous they cannot gain further Satiety for the remainder of the scene. Beasts who expend all their Satiety normally are at risk of assuming this form involuntarily. Any time a Beast with the Ravenous Condition encounters a stimulus for their Hunger they must roll their remaining unspent willpower points, on a failure they assume their Mythic Form with a focused goal to feed. A character at maximum Satiety cannot use Mythic Form.
                System: In Mythic Form a Beast becomes the physical embodiment of her internal soul. Her true form and Atavisms become visible to onlookers, while her human body fades and twists into the new form. While in this form the Beast uses her Mythic Traits* (see note below), and treats all Atavisms as though she had spent Satiety to power them. However, this power comes at a price. For one the Beast must single-mindedly pursue a single purpose, ignoring all other interests. This isn't like Death Rage or Frenzy, the Beast retains her sentience, ability to reason, plot and even converse, but she will be focused upon whatever cause brought her to use Mythic Form in the first place; rolls to perform actions that do not help her attain this goal suffer a -4 penalty. Second, the Beast becomes a magnet for Heroes, granting an automatic success to any Hero attempting to find her through Heroic Stalking. Mythic Form lasts until the end of the scene, or until the Beast flees into her Lair.

                Mythic Traits: The Horror, instead of gaining [Lair * 2] points to spend between her Attributes and size, adds her Lair dots to all Dice Pools, as well as two of her choice between her Size, Defense, Initiative, and Speed. She applies her full defense vs Firearms, and cannot suffer Conditions that make no sense in her new form, such as Arm Wrack on a giant snake.

                Kind of defeats the purpose of Inheritance, doesn't it?
                Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-13-2017, 11:25 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  Kind of defeats the purpose of Inheritance, doesn't it?
                  Well, yeah. Then again, Inheritance isn't a typical event for an ongoing story where people want to play their characters. It's just not seen as a reward in practice, and certainly only for end-game play. This would be for people who want to play tangible Beasts instead of Otherkin. There's no wrong way to play, this is just presented as an alternative.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Well, there is a Nightmare that allows them to do so.

                    Behold, My True Form is one of the basic nightmares in the core book, but it inflicts damage upon your victims because of how shocking it is to behold.
                    Huh, I missed one. Then all my Beast characters will now have this Nightmare, I suppose.

                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Also in the series, the primary antagonist for the Wesen is the Grimm, itself. They're the boogeymen to these creatures, and the mere mention of their presence causes them to hulk out and initiate their fight or flight response. There's not really a vast, otherworldly power threatening the Wesen that could be portrayed through Changeling. But the nature of a Grimm, or a collective group of Grimm would make for passable Heroes where Beast is concerned.
                    Yeah, now you describe it, Heroes seems as good Grimms also.


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                    • #11
                      Behold, My True Form isn't necessarily what you want in a Wesen. It deals damage, and a Woge in the show fits more towards forcing a degeneration roll/breaking point of some kind. Sure, you can give it the fluff that their Beastly side is showing, but given the context of other Nightmares it is just as valid to say it showed spiders pouring out of your face.

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                      • #12
                        A good way to make Wyrd's original idea work is to make Grimms a type of hereditary Hunter splat; specializing in hunting Changelings. Add a houserule that says a Changeling's Mask "slips" during moments of extreme tension, allowing Grimms, other Changelings, and maybe some or all of the other CofD splats to see their Mein, and you pretty much have Wesen.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mangle77 View Post
                          A good way to make Wyrd's original idea work is to make Grimms a type of hereditary Hunter splat; specializing in hunting Changelings. Add a houserule that says a Changeling's Mask "slips" during moments of extreme tension, allowing Grimms, other Changelings, and maybe some or all of the other CofD splats to see their Mein, and you pretty much have Wesen.
                          Exaclty what I thought.


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                          • #14
                            Is there a way for mortals to see the Mein in RAW? I seem to remember a way, but for the life of me I can't find mention of it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
                              Is there a way for mortals to see the Mein in RAW? I seem to remember a way, but for the life of me I can't find mention of it.
                              ‚Äč"Dropping the Mask" is the only way I can remember, but I don't have access to any of the books right now. One that note, my idea of the Mask "slipping" would be the version of Woge that only Grimms and Wesen see, "Dropping the Mask" would be the version that EVERYONE can see.


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