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  • 1st ed using XP system from 2nd editions

    Is there any way to convert the old XP system to the new 2nd ed flat xp system? I want to play again but without the Aspirations system and flat xp is a bit discouraging.
    Im also afraid to use the rules of 2nd edition flat XP and unbalance the game considering that the powers are gradual.


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  • #2
    For anything that has a flat cost per dot, divide by 5. For anything that has a cost that scales xNew Dot, find the mean cost per dot (if it goes from 0-5 dots, the mean will be the same as the cost of the third dot), and divide that by 5. Round to the nearest whole number.

    EDIT: If you try this formula with Attributes, Skills, and Merits, you'll find it results in the same costs that 2e uses for those stats (just remember Attributes aren't 0-5, they're 1-5). It also works for in-clan and out-of-clan Disciplines in vampire.
    Last edited by Charlaquin; 06-02-2016, 11:31 AM.


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • #3
      I mean, if you don't like how 2e does XP, you could just use 1e rules straight, or the 1e XP costs for 2e mechanics. Personally, I don't think the flat XP of 2e unbalances anything; getting XP is a little faster, and buying high dots are cheaper, but buying low dots are more expensive. If you want to slow growth down, award Beats at the end of sessions instead of XP (five Beats to an XP means that 1 Beat = 1 first-ed XP, and 1 second-ed XP = 5 first-ed XP). If you want a flat system but with 1e XP, you can take the existing N*new dot system and make each dot cost N*3 (e.g. every skill dot would be 9xp, rather than 3>6>9>12>15). Ultimately, this works out to the same XP spent, but without the exponential growth.

      Does that help? I'm a little confused by your question; to me, "flat XP" is how 2e does it (each dot costs the same), and you say you don't like that, so I assume you want to use 2e mechanics with 1e XP costs. If you're trying for the opposite (1e mechancs with 2e XP costs) Charlaquin's got you covered.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by AceOfAlmonds View Post
        I mean, if you don't like how 2e does XP, you could just use 1e rules straight, or the 1e XP costs for 2e mechanics. Personally, I don't think the flat XP of 2e unbalances anything; getting XP is a little faster, and buying high dots are cheaper, but buying low dots are more expensive. If you want to slow growth down, award Beats at the end of sessions instead of XP (five Beats to an XP means that 1 Beat = 1 first-ed XP, and 1 second-ed XP = 5 first-ed XP). If you want a flat system but with 1e XP, you can take the existing N*new dot system and make each dot cost N*3 (e.g. every skill dot would be 9xp, rather than 3>6>9>12>15). Ultimately, this works out to the same XP spent, but without the exponential growth.

        Does that help? I'm a little confused by your question; to me, "flat XP" is how 2e does it (each dot costs the same), and you say you don't like that, so I assume you want to use 2e mechanics with 1e XP costs. If you're trying for the opposite (1e mechancs with 2e XP costs) Charlaquin's got you covered.

        I meant that i like the 2nd edition XP system and I want to use it in the first edition game setting. I read wat Charlaquin's wrote but still a little bit confusing for me.

        There are some contracts in Changeling that you dont need the previous power to buy it. So if I want a two dots Contract that doesnt require the previous Its recomended to still pay 3xp or 6?


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        • #5
          Gotcha, okay. I'll try to walk the math through Contracts (cheap, expensive, and Goblin) and Clarity, since everything else gets covered in CofD already. (xp = cost in 1e; XP = cost in 2e)

          So cheap Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) cost 4*new dots. That means their average cost is 12xp. Divide by 5, that's 2 XP (2.4, rounded down). Expensive Contracts (out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) are 6*new dots, average of 18xp, meaning they cost 4XP in the new system (3.6, rounded up).

          Goblin Contracts are one-off; you can buy one and only one (although there might be a few that scale? that's outside my scope right now). Each is 2*dots; 1-dot costs 2xp, 2-dot costs 4xp, 3-dot costs 6xp, 4-dot costs 8xp, 5-dot costs 10xp. Since we shouldn't round to zero, that means 1-, 2-, and 3-dot Goblin Contracts cost 1 XP, while 4- and 5-dot ones cost 2 XP. (If there are Goblin Contracts that require dots be purchased in sequence, their average is 6xp, meaning they'd be 1 XP each.)

          Clarity is 3*new dots, but scales to 10 instead of 5, meaning the average is 16.5xp. That divides down to 3 XP, so hey, same number, that's cool.

          Edit: the math pendant in me wants to add that values should be rounded to the nearest natural/cardinal number rather than whole number (since whole numbers include zero, while natural/cardinal don't), but I mean it in fun, rather than snobbery.
          Last edited by AceOfAlmonds; 06-02-2016, 01:50 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by AceOfAlmonds View Post
            Gotcha, okay. I'll try to walk the math through Contracts (cheap, expensive, and Goblin) and Clarity, since everything else gets covered in CofD already. (xp = cost in 1e; XP = cost in 2e)

            So cheap Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) cost 4*new dots. That means their average cost is 12xp. Divide by 5, that's 2 XP (2.4, rounded down). Expensive Contracts (out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) are 6*new dots, average of 18xp, meaning they cost 4XP in the new system (3.6, rounded up).

            Goblin Contracts are one-off; you can buy one and only one (although there might be a few that scale? that's outside my scope right now). Each is 2*dots; 1-dot costs 2xp, 2-dot costs 4xp, 3-dot costs 6xp, 4-dot costs 8xp, 5-dot costs 10xp. Since we shouldn't round to zero, that means 1-, 2-, and 3-dot Goblin Contracts cost 1 XP, while 4- and 5-dot ones cost 2 XP. (If there are Goblin Contracts that require dots be purchased in sequence, their average is 6xp, meaning they'd be 1 XP each.)

            Clarity is 3*new dots, but scales to 10 instead of 5, meaning the average is 16.5xp. That divides down to 3 XP, so hey, same number, that's cool.

            Edit: the math pendant in me wants to add that values should be rounded to the nearest natural/cardinal number rather than whole number (since whole numbers include zero, while natural/cardinal don't), but I mean it in fun, rather than snobbery.
            Awesome, thanks for crunching those numbers!

            Personally, I would just flatten Goblin Contracts out to 1xp each, regardless of dot level. Then it's still the same average cost overall (since 1 and 2 dot contracts would cost 0 if we round to whole numbers instead of natural numbers, 3 dot contracts would cost 1 and and 4 and 5 dot contracts would cost 2), and it's less awkward than saying 1, 2, and 3 all cost 1 each but 4 and 5 cost 2 each.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
              Awesome, thanks for crunching those numbers!

              Personally, I would just flatten Goblin Contracts out to 1xp each, regardless of dot level. Then it's still the same average cost overall (since 1 and 2 dot contracts would cost 0 if we round to whole numbers instead of natural numbers, 3 dot contracts would cost 1 and and 4 and 5 dot contracts would cost 2), and it's less awkward than saying 1, 2, and 3 all cost 1 each but 4 and 5 cost 2 each.
              That's certainly simpler, although part of me blanches at having something like Good and Bad Luck or Bloodbinding costing the same as Shooter's Bargain.

              Hmm, guess I didn't do Wyrd either, although since it's a Power Trait, it's probably the same XP cost as Primium, Blood Potency etc. 8*new dot with a 1-10 range means an average of 44xp, divide by 5 gives us 9 XP...which is significantly more. Although if you assume most games don't go above 5, then the average is 24xp, or 5 XP. (That assumption may be biased; my games have never gone above 5, but that's a very small sample size.)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AceOfAlmonds View Post
                Gotcha, okay. I'll try to walk the math through Contracts (cheap, expensive, and Goblin) and Clarity, since everything else gets covered in CofD already. (xp = cost in 1e; XP = cost in 2e)

                So cheap Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) cost 4*new dots. That means their average cost is 12xp. Divide by 5, that's 2 XP (2.4, rounded down). Expensive Contracts (out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) are 6*new dots, average of 18xp, meaning they cost 4XP in the new system (3.6, rounded up).

                Goblin Contracts are one-off; you can buy one and only one (although there might be a few that scale? that's outside my scope right now). Each is 2*dots; 1-dot costs 2xp, 2-dot costs 4xp, 3-dot costs 6xp, 4-dot costs 8xp, 5-dot costs 10xp. Since we shouldn't round to zero, that means 1-, 2-, and 3-dot Goblin Contracts cost 1 XP, while 4- and 5-dot ones cost 2 XP. (If there are Goblin Contracts that require dots be purchased in sequence, their average is 6xp, meaning they'd be 1 XP each.)

                Clarity is 3*new dots, but scales to 10 instead of 5, meaning the average is 16.5xp. That divides down to 3 XP, so hey, same number, that's cool.

                Edit: the math pendant in me wants to add that values should be rounded to the nearest natural/cardinal number rather than whole number (since whole numbers include zero, while natural/cardinal don't), but I mean it in fun, rather than snobbery.

                Thats amazing!
                Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) 4xp
                Expensive Contracts(out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) are 6*new dots
                Clarity 3xp
                Goblin Contract Why limiting the purchase by one Goblin Contract? What about each dot 1xp? So if you have a Goblin Contract with 5 dots you need to buy with 5xp, fair enough?

                You both think I should use virtue and vice from CofD normaly or keep with 1st ed?
                What about using touchstones here too?
                Last edited by magisanctum; 06-02-2016, 03:46 PM.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by magisanctum View Post


                  Thats amazing!
                  Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) 4xp
                  Expensive Contracts(out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) are 6*new dots
                  Clarity 3xp
                  Goblin Contract Why limiting the purchase by one Goblin Contract? What about each dot 1xp? So if you have a Goblin Contract with 5 dots you need to buy with 5xp, fair enough?

                  You both think I should use virtue and vice from CofD normaly or keep with 1st ed?
                  What about using touchstones here too?

                  That's what it is in 1e, yeah. You could do a direct transfer over, but given the lower level of power of Contracts as compared to Disciplines or Embeds, I would use the math:

                  Cheap Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) 2XP per dot
                  Expensive Contracts (out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) 4XP per dot
                  Goblin Contracts 1XP each (per Contract; each individual one costs 1XP, no multiplication) OR 1-2XP each (but again, no multiplication)
                  Clarity 3XP per dot
                  Wyrd 9XP per dot (or 5XP if you want to throw out the math and base it on other gamelines)

                  I personally loooooooooove the new Virtue/Vice system, since it allows a lot more creativity and is easier to have them actually come up, but some people like concrete examples and structured choices better. Touchstones I'm more ambiguous on; they're a great tool, but I don't know if they're required.
                  Last edited by AceOfAlmonds; 06-02-2016, 04:52 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I'd just charge 5xp per dot for Wyrd, since that's what every 2e gameline does. It's the exception to the formula, because power stats were prohibitively expensive in 1e.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AceOfAlmonds View Post


                      That's what it is in 1e, yeah. You could do a direct transfer over, but given the lower level of power of Contracts as compared to Disciplines or Embeds, I would use the math:

                      Cheap Contracts (universal, in-Seeming, and in-Court) 2XP per dot
                      Expensive Contracts (out-of-Seeming and out-of-Court) 4XP per dot
                      Goblin Contracts 1XP each (per Contract; each individual one costs 1XP, no multiplication) OR 1-2XP each (but again, no multiplication)
                      Clarity 3XP per dot
                      Wyrd 9XP per dot (or 5XP if you want to throw out the math and base it on other gamelines)

                      I personally loooooooooove the new Virtue/Vice system, since it allows a lot more creativity and is easier to have them actually come up, but some people like concrete examples and structured choices better. Touchstones I'm more ambiguous on; they're a great tool, but I don't know if they're required.

                      Im not sure about the Goblin contracts being so cheap, seems that would affect the game in a big way. For exemple take a Goblin Contract with 5 dots super duper powerful, im not sure if its fair to pay only 2xp.
                      If you consider that with 2xp you buy 1 dot merit and 1 dot skill, would not be overpower if you could pay 2xp for a powerful Goblin Contract since is a supernatural advantage?

                      The touchstone I think it would fit perfectly since changeling is about not going mad. Half of you needs to remember your human side, your beloved parents or your ex girlfriend, something that makes your feet touch the ground, but the other you needs to be the fantastic being that you become and you have to always remember and accept the bizarre creature you are now.
                      (Take the werewolf 2ed for exemple)


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by magisanctum View Post


                        Im not sure about the Goblin contracts being so cheap, seems that would affect the game in a big way. For exemple take a Goblin Contract with 5 dots super duper powerful, im not sure if its fair to pay only 2xp.
                        If you consider that with 2xp you buy 1 dot merit and 1 dot skill, would not be overpower if you could pay 2xp for a powerful Goblin Contract since is a supernatural advantage?

                        The touchstone I think it would fit perfectly since changeling is about not going mad. Half of you needs to remember your human side, your beloved parents or your ex girlfriend, something that makes your feet touch the ground, but the other you needs to be the fantastic being that you become and you have to always remember and accept the bizarre creature you are now.
                        (Take the werewolf 2ed for exemple)
                        Except that you can buy the fifth dot of a merit for 2 XP, too, as well as for the fifth dot of normal Contracts. Besides, fifth-dot Goblin Contracts screw you over in a biiiiiig way. Just because it's magic (and mortals can't buy it) doesn't mean that it's worth it. I personally don't think it's a balance issue, but YMMV.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by magisanctum View Post



                          If you consider that with 2xp you buy 1 dot merit and 1 dot skill, would not be overpower if you could pay 2xp for a powerful Goblin Contract since is a supernatural advantage?
                          Merits cost 1xp in 2E. Skills cost 2.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by magisanctum View Post
                            Im not sure about the Goblin contracts being so cheap, seems that would affect the game in a big way. For exemple take a Goblin Contract with 5 dots super duper powerful, im not sure if its fair to pay only 2xp.
                            Keep in mind, one 2e-style experience is worth roughly 5 1e experience points. With Goblin Contracts costing 2x[dot level] exp in 1e, a 5-dot Goblin Contract would cost 10 1e experience points, exactly the same value as 2 2e experiences.

                            If anything, the "1 experience for 1, 2, and 3 dot Goblin Contracts and 2 experiences for 4 and 5 dot contracts" method overcharges for everything except 3 and 5 dot Contracts. If all Goblin Contracts cost 1 dot, you're slightly overcharged for 1 and 2 dot Contracts and slightly undercharged for 4 and 5 dot Contracts, but the average cost for Goblin Contracts in general is exactly what it should be.

                            Originally posted by magisanctum View Post
                            If you consider that with 2xp you buy 1 dot merit and 1 dot skill, would not be overpower if you could pay 2xp for a powerful Goblin Contract since is a supernatural advantage?
                            Skill dots cost 2 experiences each and Merit dots cost 1 experience each. 2 experiences buys you 1 dot in a Skill or 2 dots of Merits. 1 experience (the amount it would cost to buy a 3-dot Goblin Contract) could get you 1 Merit dot or half way to a Skill dot. But that's roughly the same as in 1e, where the amount of experience it cost to buy a Goblin Contract was the same amount it would have cost to buy a Merit dot of the same level, or 2/3 of a Skill dot of the same level.

                            Originally posted by magisanctum View Post
                            The touchstone I think it would fit perfectly since changeling is about not going mad. Half of you needs to remember your human side, your beloved parents or your ex girlfriend, something that makes your feet touch the ground, but the other you needs to be the fantastic being that you become and you have to always remember and accept the bizarre creature you are now.
                            (Take the werewolf 2ed for exemple)
                            Yeah, and 2e Changelings do have Touchstones, so it seems like a natural mechanic to bring in if you're doing a 1.5e kind of thing.
                            Last edited by Charlaquin; 06-03-2016, 02:09 PM.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              Yeah, and 2e Changelings do have Touchstones, so it seems like a natural mechanic to bring in if you're doing a 1.5e kind of thing.
                              Changeling 2e is not released yet, so yes is sort of a 1.5e kind of thing. It has been 7 years since I bought the game and never got a chance to use it. I tought in using the Experience Rules from 2ed because is cristal clear how to understand them. Every 1ed I've played was very difficult to establish a criterion of XP distribution without doing some house rules, being GM this could be rly annoying at times.

                              Well.. probably im going to create a sheet based on these rules we established here. Im gonna post later;


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