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  • #46
    I should have put request, not suggestion. Wrong connotation. Meh.

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    • #47
      Ehhhh..... is that really a drawback? I mean, sure, there are several kiths out there that scale really well with Wyrd. But there's also a lot of kiths that have nothing to do with Wyrd at all. An Ifrit/Fireheart, lets say. No Wyrd required.

      Aren't we moving in the direction of duel kiths becoming almost necessary?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MCN View Post
        Ehhhh..... is that really a drawback? I mean, sure, there are several kiths out there that scale really well with Wyrd. But there's also a lot of kiths that have nothing to do with Wyrd at all. An Ifrit/Fireheart, lets say. No Wyrd required.

        Aren't we moving in the direction of duel kiths becoming almost necessary?
        It's been said that Kiths are getting reworked to all interface with Wyrd somehow.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #49
          Ah, I didn't hear that bit'

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          • #50
            Unsurprisingly (and perhaps unavoidably) there's still some powerbuilding based on the full preview of 2e Kiths and Seemings that was just posted, but the gap is now small enough that I don't think it's going to be a serious issue. For example a few Kiths use Wyrd as a dice-pool safety net, that your dice pool cannot fall below. These are probably the best to put as your secondary Kith, because if you plan on being any good at your Kith powers, it's rare that you'll get reduced that much.

            That said, I was going through the official list and the drawback does give a lot of pause if you're looking to select with an eye towards these things. Or at least for most players the amount of fiddling isn't going to be worth it, and the ones that really care aren't going to feel so overpowered for their choice as to be disruptive.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              Unsurprisingly (and perhaps unavoidably) there's still some powerbuilding based on the full preview of 2e Kiths and Seemings that was just posted, but the gap is now small enough that I don't think it's going to be a serious issue. For example a few Kiths use Wyrd as a dice-pool safety net, that your dice pool cannot fall below. These are probably the best to put as your secondary Kith, because if you plan on being any good at your Kith powers, it's rare that you'll get reduced that much.

              That said, I was going through the official list and the drawback does give a lot of pause if you're looking to select with an eye towards these things. Or at least for most players the amount of fiddling isn't going to be worth it, and the ones that really care aren't going to feel so overpowered for their choice as to be disruptive.
              Whose powerbuilding, I haven't seen that here at all?

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              • #52
                I certainly do, though more for theory practice than in actual play. It's generally a good idea for at least one person at the table to develop a good eye for what breaks the game and hurts party dynamic so that people don't do it by accident. And if we can make that kind of accidental power discrepancy less likely by giving feedback in open dev, why wouldn't we look for ways to break the system?

                Like, I'm really glad to see the armor kiths got toned down a little, because I have had bad experiences where the survivability difference between armored characters and unarmored characters created huge headaches for the ST.

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                • #53
                  Three posters on this thread all spotted the same thing (which was addressed quickly)... so it's something some of us pay attention to. Like HelmsDerp said, it's a useful thing during the open dev because it's another form of the community helping to edit the text before publication, and useful for anything that makes it through (either because nobody caught it, or I as said above the gap is probably acceptable for most groups without causing issues) to know that it's there.

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                  • #54
                    As a big fan of hybrid and generalist character concepts, I was very fond of the 1e version of the Merit. As it concerns this one, I do not like the power nerfing, but more importantly I am greatly annoyed by a mandatory distinction between 'primary' and 'secondary' Kiths being forced on the player that wishes to use it. I dearly wish in the end a version of the drawback is made that does not force a such a distinction between the two Kiths. If it does not happen, I am going to houserule it or more simply buy Potent Kith once or thrice in combination with this Merit each and every time I use it to nullify the distinction, xp costs be damned, not so much because I care about the power nerfing (although it is a factor), but mostly because I dislike being forced to pick narrow character niches that much. If I buy Dual Kith, it should be Dual Kith, dammit, not One Kith and Half.
                    Last edited by Irioth; 01-14-2017, 06:47 PM.

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                    • #55
                      You could alway have a three dot version that treats both Kiths as one Wyrd dot Lower instead. That would functionally be pretty much like adding Potent Kith to the secondary one.


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                      • #56
                        Having a distinction between a "primary" and "secondary" Kith isn't an entirely new concept, since the original versions (there were two remember) in 1e had to deal with making sure one Kith was linked to your Seeming even if the other was not. A 1e Dual Kith between a Draconic and a Coldscale had a primary Kith thematically based on if you were a Fairest or a Beast

                        As well, the idea that the current version is "One Kith and a Half" is unproductively hyperbolic. The Kith Previews all show that Kiths generally have multiple bonuses and usually only one that relies on Wyrd. As well as one could objectively try to analyze these things, we can see that the drawback is significant without being so potent that one or both Kiths don't fully matter any more.

                        As this thread has already well covered, Dual Kith needs a meaningful drawback, or every non-Dual Kith concept is inherently mechanically inferior. Not giving Dual Kith a drawback that makes you think about a fully mechanical Dual Kith, or just refluffing an existing Kith is just "power nerfing" non-Dual Kith characters.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          Having a distinction between a "primary" and "secondary" Kith isn't an entirely new concept, since the original versions (there were two remember) in 1e had to deal with making sure one Kith was linked to your Seeming even if the other was not. A 1e Dual Kith between a Draconic and a Coldscale had a primary Kith thematically based on if you were a Fairest or a Beast

                          As well, the idea that the current version is "One Kith and a Half" is unproductively hyperbolic. The Kith Previews all show that Kiths generally have multiple bonuses and usually only one that relies on Wyrd. As well as one could objectively try to analyze these things, we can see that the drawback is significant without being so potent that one or both Kiths don't fully matter any more.

                          As this thread has already well covered, Dual Kith needs a meaningful drawback, or every non-Dual Kith concept is inherently mechanically inferior. Not giving Dual Kith a drawback that makes you think about a fully mechanical Dual Kith, or just refluffing an existing Kith is just "power nerfing" non-Dual Kith characters.
                          I would be content with a drawback that imposes a slght to moderate power price w/o imposing any distinction between the two Kiths, such as Charlaquin's suggestion of a three dot version that treats both Kiths as one Wyrd dot lower. I just loathe being forced to choose a priority between Kiths if I want to break free of such narrow 'class' character concepts. I often like to mix and match character features outside narrow and stereotype thematic archetypes for individual concepts and I usually find CoD games' mandatory choice of 'inborn' splats with serious niche specialization implications (vampire Clans, mage Paths, etc.) terribly constricting and burdensome. E.g. I typically prefer to treat Paths, Clans, Families, etc.as freeform or non-existent as it concerns the choice and development of Arcana, Disciplines, Bans, Atavisms, Lair Traits, and so on. Every hack, Merit, or option that allows to break free somewhat from the prison of mandatory inborn splats is a godsend to me.

                          Optimally speaking, I would prefer for the Merit to have two versions, a three-dot version that treats both Kiths as one Wyrd dot lower and a five-dot one that imposes no such price. I acknowledge the differentiation concerns that are driving you to seek a drawback for the Merit, even if I am not sure I can find them that important, since I usually prefer character creation to be strongly freeform. But I think in the version I prefer there would be an adequate balance between making the lesser version of the Merit cheap enough to be widely available for all players interested in hybrid or freeform Kiths, and the greater version pricey enough that only the players really interested in making this a central part of the concept would pick it. Then again, as I said, I can live with only the lesser version existing, if you are concerned that despite the high price too many experienced characters would end up having the greater version (although honestly I don't see much of a problem here). I just want no priority or preference whatsoever between the two Kiths.
                          Last edited by Irioth; 01-15-2017, 06:33 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Irioth View Post
                            I just loathe being forced to choose a priority between Kiths if I want to break free of such narrow 'class' character concepts.
                            Even in the broad context of the paragraph this is in, it doesn't really make much sense. Kiths aren't the in-born splat of the game, they aren't "narrow ' class' character concepts" since almost all of them can be replicated or matched in other fashions. You don't need to be a Venombite to play the "poisoner" niche, it's just a useful free package to a specific mechanical way of embodying that concept. Dual Kith isn't about "breaking free" of this either. Dual Kith is about when you want to go beyond refluffing a Kith to better fit your concept (something the rules already say you can do, if you want a thunderbird instead of a phoenix you can swap electric effects for fire effects instead of Dual Kith electric + fire) and mechanically represent a character that distinctly embodies two different concepts. From the perspective you seem to be coming from, the prioritization should be better, because it creates more character concepts rather than less. The current rules allow there to be more one Kith than the other concepts, where removing the priority means all Dual Kiths are equally both every time. The developer has already said that Potent Kith and Dual Kith aren't going to be written to avoid you taking Potent Kith in your secondary Kith to equalize them, even if that's the intent because some people want that to be an option.

                            I often like to mix and match character features outside narrow and stereotype thematic archetypes for individual concepts and I usually find CoD games' mandatory choice of 'inborn' splats with serious niche specialization implications (vampire Clans, mage Paths, etc.) terribly constricting and burdensome.
                            That's cool. But the rules are written under the assumption that people are using the rest of the rules. If you have more fun changing stuff, change away. But don't advocate for a change to a Merit based on how you like to house rule the core rules of a supernatural splat, because that's just asking for your playstyle to be forced on everyone else. Dual Kith needs to work for people that are using the RAW first, and worry about people house ruling... tenth or something.

                            As well, while I appreciate why you feel this way, I also find it a bit silly in a discussion of CtL 2e, which is pretty much the least restrictive CofD to date on this stuff. Not having a Seeming now makes sense as something you might want and is possible to not have, Courts are meant to be custom created for each group rather than picking a set from the books, Kiths are no longer tied to Seemings, and are directly stated to be refluffable, and there's Dual Kith on top of that, etc. The amount of effort the people working on CtL 2e have put in to balance the structure of predefined splats with the desire to facilitate as many player built concepts as possible is astounding, and I don't think Dual Kith's drawback does anything to put more than a microscopic dent in that outcome.

                            I acknowledge the differentiation concerns that are driving you to seek a drawback for the Merit, even if I am not sure I can find them that important, since I usually prefer character creation to be strongly freeform.
                            How freeform you like your character generation has no impact on the concerns I've raised in this thread, unless free form means completely ignoring all the mechanics character creation choices select for a character. And there comes a point where, "well I don't really care about the mechanics anyway..." turns into, "well then why should we care about your opinions about the mechanics?"

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