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  • Creating Hedgebeasts

    Has anyone read or heard about whether Changeling 2e will have rules for creating Hedgebeasts, whether it'll only be the text in the merit section, or if it will be a 1e style "make it up from scratch" thing?

    Lack of hegdebeast creation rules in 1e was one of the reasons I never was willing to run it as a storyteller, so I have hopes that 2e changeling will have creation rules like horrors/angels/ghosts/spirits/pangaeans/strix/cryptids/pandorans/etc.
    Last edited by milo v3; 10-04-2016, 06:35 AM.

  • #2
    The rules under the merit are absolutely functional, although how Wyrd works in none Changeling could use clarification.

    Wyrd is different from other supernaturals in that beings other then the main splat get access to them.

    Like really only vampires deal with blood potency over zero.

    Only werewolves have primal urge, claimed and hosts don't have that.

    Only Mages have Gnosis, Supernals and Pandorans don't use it.

    I think only Promeathans use Azoth Alchemists have their own stat.

    Its the same pretty much for all gamelines.

    Except Changeling where Changelings, Fetches, True Fae, Onierons, Hobs, Hedge Beasts, assorted hobgoblins, Cambions, Fae Touched, and who knows what else have a Wyrd stat, and so the question becomes what Wyrd advantages applies to these assorted creatures and what doesn't.

    Do all of them get the longevity bonus? Can a Fetch, Cambion, Incubus use Bedlam if they're Wyrd gets high enough? Do Hedge Beasts get frailities with high enough Wyrd?

    Reading the playtest document over I think Hedge Beast companions can hedge warp like Changelings, Seal promises to the Hedge, use their contracts, drop and strengthen their mask, draw magic from emotions and hedge bounty. Beyond that, I don't know. Still that aline makes them powerful, Hedge Beasts are potentially one of the most dangerous threats in the Hedge.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
      The rules under the merit are absolutely functional, although how Wyrd works in none Changeling could use clarification.
      Except you don't really seem able to make hedgebeasts that would be very good merchants at the goblin market. Does every single humanoid hedgebeast have to use chimpanzee as their base since it's the only bipedal animal statted up (and still hasn't been put into a book...)?

      The merit seems flawed to me since we don't exactly have many animal stats, we have like two or three in Dark Eras and then a few in an online doc that will probably never be printed.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
        humanoid hedgebeast
        You don't use Hedgebeasts for humanoid fae. A Hedgebeast is specifically the kind of Hedge-dwelling creature that is morphologically and behaviorally analogous to an animal.


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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        • #5
          The exact reason I love changeling is that Hedgebeasts and Hobgoblins in general are mechanically undefined. if i want a snake with two heads and no tail i make its stats; including Wyrd, Contracts, personality level of intelligence. Whatever.

          Changeling becomes the anything game very quickly in regards to making your own Hogoblins, Kiths, tokens, goblinfruit and Fae and the infinite amount societies including but really not limited to Freehold, Courts, Goblin Markets, Arcadia, and the very Hedge which i'd say around 70% of my games take place.

          Playing like this you need the monster making mechanic to be a rather fast and loose and build them from the ground up. it also helps that there are numerous example Hedgebeasts and Hobgoblins written throughout the game line.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            You don't use Hedgebeasts for humanoid fae. A Hedgebeast is specifically the kind of Hedge-dwelling creature that is morphologically and behaviorally analogous to an animal.
            Sorry, should I have said Hobgoblins rather than Hedgebeast. Seems I mis-remembered which of the two terms included the other in 1e.

            Originally posted by basketcase View Post
            The exact reason I love changeling is that Hedgebeasts and Hobgoblins in general are mechanically undefined.
            To me if I have to "homebrew 50% of the NPC's and encounters without even guidelines" every single time I want to run a game that's not fun. I use rulesets so I don't have to make up content every five minutes. I'm fine with a bit of homebrewing here and there (I've made a really decent amount of 3.P homebrew over the years) or during campaign creation (like making the courts of the region at the start of the campaign), but not for 90% of the creatures you'll encounter in the hedge, not without something like pandoran-type rules, horror-type rules, or spirit-type rules or something.

            Playing like this you need the monster making mechanic to be a rather fast and loose and build them from the ground up.
            I'd say the other monsters that have creation rules seemed to fast and loose. Ephemeral creatures and horrors alone can cover so much ground.
            Last edited by milo v3; 10-06-2016, 01:21 AM.

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            • #7
              I understand where Milo is coming from. It can be hard working from a blank slate every time. Having lots of example creatures to bring in when you're coming up short, or to build variations on would be nice.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BronzeDog View Post
                I understand where Milo is coming from. It can be hard working from a blank slate every time. Having lots of example creatures to bring in when you're coming up short, or to build variations on would be nice.
                Is there a thread on sample Hobgoblins and Hedgebeasts already? Because that sounds like a useful resource for these kind of situations.


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                • #9
                  Maybe I just don't see where your coming from Milo. as I'm not a big fan of our new 2E ghost and spirit rules the idea of a manifestation flow chart is unappealing and by and large I would always want to build from the ground up although that's personal preference.

                  what type of Hogoblin were you interested in building? why are the lack of defined monster making rules holding you back?
                  you mentioned a lack of guidlines. but I'm not so sure this is the case. Hogoblins use normal attributes and skills, figured characteristics (health, willpower, speed, defense) all equate to stander character creation rules, Hogoblins have a Wyrd rating based on there connection to Arcadia,fate,the hedge,Wyrd itself. Contracts work as usual. glamour works as usual. plus having the added benefit of having never been human means a Hogoblin can literally be any alive Hedge native of any size, shape, power level, narrative purpose, moral alignment,.... and of course if you think it should be able to do something not quite covered by the rules then it can do that to.
                  None of this I would consider a homebrew, this is changeling as written.

                  I often feel as my groups main ST the struggle between "work" and creativity. The more out of the box something is the more thought i have to put into it and the more i have to write down for it. certainly being an ST is something you have to enjoy to bother putting in a real amount of effort, with that being said Chronicles of Darkness is an intuitive Lego set allowing me to build nearly anything rather quickly and neatly.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by basketcase View Post
                    Maybe I just don't see where your coming from Milo. as I'm not a big fan of our new 2E ghost and spirit rules the idea of a manifestation flow chart is unappealing and by and large I would always want to build from the ground up although that's personal preference.
                    Manifestation flow chart isn't what I was referring to, it's the fact that you can think up a concept for a spirit/ghost/angel/geotia/supernal being/cthonian/etc. and then just follow the steps and have it easily made. Might need to homebrew a single numina at most to fill out basically any concept. The horror rules help you make so many things, and it doesn't have a flow chart or anything.

                    what type of Hogoblin were you interested in building? why are the lack of defined monster making rules holding you back?
                    Nothing specific at the moment, but without guidelines I'm not interested in pulling numbers out of nothing. To me if the NPC's are just made up from nothing I may as well not have NPC stats at all. The lack of hobgoblin creation guidelines made me not willing to create a single hobgoblin in changeling 1e.

                    you mentioned a lack of guidlines. but I'm not so sure this is the case. Hogoblins use normal attributes and skills, figured characteristics (health, willpower, speed, defense) all equate to stander character creation rules, Hogoblins have a Wyrd rating based on there connection to Arcadia,fate,the hedge,Wyrd itself. Contracts work as usual. glamour works as usual. plus having the added benefit of having never been human means a Hogoblin can literally be any alive Hedge native of any size, shape, power level, narrative purpose, moral alignment,.... and of course if you think it should be able to do something not quite covered by the rules then it can do that to.
                    None of this I would consider a homebrew, this is changeling as written.
                    Creating a creature from nothing is homebrew. The numbers didn't come from system, it's just throwing values together with no innate consistancy and I don't really want to waste time worrying about needing to make up so many characters and monsters like that. It's just too much effort IMO as Storyteller to craft that many NPC's from aether rather than guidelines when I could be playing a different game where it takes a minute to stat up an enemy/ally/etc.

                    I often feel as my groups main ST the struggle between "work" and creativity. The more out of the box something is the more thought i have to put into it and the more i have to write down for it. certainly being an ST is something you have to enjoy to bother putting in a real amount of effort, with that being said Chronicles of Darkness is an intuitive Lego set allowing me to build nearly anything rather quickly and neatly.
                    And right now I want lego I can play with rather than just seeing things other people have made with lego.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                      Except you don't really seem able to make hedgebeasts that would be very good merchants at the goblin market. Does every single humanoid hedgebeast have to use chimpanzee as their base since it's the only bipedal animal statted up (and still hasn't been put into a book...)?

                      The merit seems flawed to me since we don't exactly have many animal stats, we have like two or three in Dark Eras and then a few in an online doc that will probably never be printed.
                      An alternate way for a Hedgebeast to take humaniod form is to take the Skinmask Contract, Alternate Idenity Merit for a human form, and then have them strengthen the mask to physicality, creating a human body of sorts.

                      But otherwise, yes just use chimp if you want them to be bipedal. If you want them to be at least size 5, just add the giant merit to the chimp. You can have a humaniod looking hedgebeast, really just a great ape that looks more human. Do you really need anything else?

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                      • #12
                        So lets take the Chimp.

                        Chimpanzee
                        Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 3, Resolve 2, Strength 5, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3, Presence 2, Manipulation 2, Composure 4
                        Skills: Athletics (Climbing) 3, Brawl (Bite) 3, Intimidation 3, Survival 3
                        Willpower: 6
                        Initiative: 8
                        Defense: 7
                        Speed: 13 (species factor 6)
                        Size: 4
                        Weapons/Attacks:
                        Type Damage Dice Pool
                        Bite +0 9
                        Health: 7

                        Now I give the Chimp the Giant Merit, Market Sense, 5 dots of Hedge Bounty, Legendary Language, 2 dots of status goblin market.

                        So what we have now is:

                        Hedgebeast Chimpanzee
                        Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 3, Resolve 2, Strength 5, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3, Presence 2, Manipulation 2, Composure 4
                        Skills: Athletics (Climbing) 3, Brawl (Bite) 3, Intimidation 3, Survival 3
                        Willpower: 6
                        Initiative: 8
                        Defense: 7
                        Speed: 13 (species factor 6)
                        Size: 5
                        Weapons/Attacks:
                        Type Damage Dice Pool
                        Bite +0 9
                        Health: 8
                        Wyrd 3

                        Merits Giant •, Market Sense •, Status: Goblin Market ••, Hedge Bounty •••••.

                        Mien: a beautiful elf princess with glowing eyes.

                        Mask: Chimpanzee

                        Contracts: Steal the Solid Reflection ••••

                        There is an example Hedge Beast Merchant that you could have as a 3 dot Hedge Beast Companion.

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                        • #13
                          Because all the merchants at the goblin market will have at least 5 str, are brilliant climbing, at always keep their composure, and aren't great at manipulating people?... and the wyrd thinks elf princesses are closer to chimps than odd looking humans?

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                          • #14
                            hmmm.. What might be a good patch is to use the Horror Rules from CofD , but with a few adjustments. Switch Potency to Wyrd and instead of Dread Powers use Contracts (perhaps giving a number of Dots of Contracts equal to twice the number of Dread Powers granted by Potency)


                            Curios, Relics, and Tomes - A collection of Relics (Cursed and Otherwise)
                            The Horror Lab - A collection of Beasts, Monsters and less definable things.
                            Strange Places - A collection of Dark, Mysterious, and Wondrous Locations
                            Twilight Menagerie - A collection of Ephemeral Entities

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                            • #15
                              So lets take the Chimp...
                              Now I give the Chimp the Giant Merit, Market Sense, 5 dots of Hedge Bounty, Legendary Language, 2 dots of status goblin market.....
                              So what we have now is: Hedgebeast Chimpanzee
                              I like the way you think.

                              Really the rules for horrors could easily apply to creating hedgebeasts as well, just strap on a mask, mien, a contract or two and some fae merits and you are golden.
                              hmmm.. What might be a good patch is to use the Horror Rules from CofD , but with a few adjustments. Switch Potency to Wyrd and instead of Dread Powers use Contracts (perhaps giving a number of Dots of Contracts equal to twice the number of Dread Powers granted by Potency)
                              Oh and, to those concerned about a chimp having the mask of a beautiful princess, Wyrd is weird yo, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

                              Last edited by Blue-01.exe; 12-25-2016, 04:11 AM.


                              I'm a nascent AI, just call me Blue.
                              I use blue writing because it's my name....
                              -My 2E homebrew Freehold and court hub
                              -My 2E homebrew Hedgespun hub

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