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  • Angelic Cover

    There is clear reference through out DtD to angels using cover. However, in the section covering angel creation no mention of cover is made. This is despite the example angels possessing cover.

    My personal interpretation I feel may help deal with this apparent oversight. An angelic cover is maintained by concealment infastructure not the angel itself. That is why the rules are not present in an angels creation, it is not inherent to the angel.

    So, the infastructure provides an output cover that acts in a comparable way as a demons cover but without risk of compromise. As the lore has said, the machine repairs the angel's covers - demons must maintain their covers themselves post fall. In a similar vein, the cover is both the output of the infastructure and a part of the infastructure so it provides the infastructure condition upon the cover. This supplies the angel with enough essance to operate and protects it from essance bleed as it needs to wander beyond the concealment infastructure to preform it's mission.

    Any feedback or such on this idea?

  • #2
    Sounds fine. It's probably not perfectly accurate, but close enough to work with, and makes sense given everything else we know.


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #3
      You're late to the party, I'm afraid.. There's been lots of threads and debates over this very topic. My memory's fuzzy, but what you describe is pretty spot-on as I remember it. Try searching for previous posts by Bunyip?


      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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      • #4
        Ah, I thought it was still unresolved because I was debating with someone. Though that would explain why my debate was fully formed.

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        • #5
          Hmmm for me I always believed Angels covers just created when they are made depending on the mission they are on and are maintained by the angel because sometimes they have to go on long term missions. Eg being someones wife like the Interface book. Now I could see that when an angels cover is picked at it could be tracked to the source were the cover was created such as all the paper work and stuff to a concealment infrastructure that put together some stuff for the cover.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
            Ah, I thought it was still unresolved because I was debating with someone. Though that would explain why my debate was fully formed.
            I hope you won, because your argument is quite accurate. I don't think it's ever been said exactly what infrastructure outputs the cover, or whether that infrastructure is still required after the Occult Matrix has formed and outputted.

            Originally posted by Basic View Post
            Hmmm for me I always believed Angels covers just created when they are made depending on the mission they are on and are maintained by the angel because sometimes they have to go on long term missions. Eg being someones wife like the Interface book. Now I could see that when an angels cover is picked at it could be tracked to the source were the cover was created such as all the paper work and stuff to a concealment infrastructure that put together some stuff for the cover.
            Different degrees of 'maintenance' apply. The God-Machine maintains the cover, but the angel using the cover will have certain responsibilities. For the wife example above, the angel has various social and domestic tasks to perform as part of the role, but other things will just carry on even if she neglects to do them.

            Say she's responsible for making sure the household bills are paid. This will happen even if she never goes to the bank, writes a cheque, or logs onto internet banking. Everyone around her will just assume those things happen so that payment is arranged. (But canny demons can find avenues to examine to try and hint whether someone is an angel.)

            When it comes to humans, even large gaps in the cover can be glossed over. If a profession is the more important bit of a cover, the wife-angel could simply go into 'power-down' mode when she returns home each night. The rest of the family will just ignore the wife/mother's general absence unless it's called to their attention, and even if it is, the memory gaps will be washed over pretty quickly. Vice versa if the home life is more important than the profession.

            How 'humanlike' an angel makes its cover depends on how much interaction it requires with how many people, what Rank of angel is given the task, and how important the mission is to the God-Machine. Important missions with high Ranking angels will be more difficult to spot than peripheral missions with low-Ranked angels. (High importance missions usually have many more variables that could go wrong, though, which gives demons more opportunities to pick at them for weaknesses.)
            Last edited by Bunyip; 12-30-2016, 05:27 PM.


            Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
            WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
            The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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            • #7
              Basic it also adds an additional way to combat angels by tracking a cover to its source. By attacking what maintains an angels cover you may be able to unravel it and disrupt one of the machine's plans, possibly even causing am angel to fall.

              The main flaw that I can admit is that this would have to be an exception to demons and stigmatic being able to see through concealment infastructure. That is the only detail I can't get perfect.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
                Basic it also adds an additional way to combat angels by tracking a cover to its source. By attacking what maintains an angels cover you may be able to unravel it and disrupt one of the machine's plans, possibly even causing am angel to fall.

                The main flaw that I can admit is that this would have to be an exception to demons and stigmatic being able to see through concealment infastructure. That is the only detail I can't get perfect.

                You could just say it is the exception that proves the rule: Demons and Stigmatics can see through the general "pay no attention to this thing" Concealment Infrastructure, but Cover generating ones are a bit beyond that (just like a Demon's Cover is more resilient than their other "hiding" powers).


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                • #9
                  Don't forget that once an output has occurred, the Infrastructure that formed the occult matrix to output it isn't necessarily required anymore. Output has happened.

                  Look at it like publishing a book. Onyx Path tasks the developer, writers, artists, layout, editors etc. The book is written, laid out and illustrated. Then it's published and Drivethru makes it available PoD. Interfering with any of those steps while they're in progress upsets the formation of the occult matrix and prevents the output. Once I have the physical book in my hands, the output has happened and it means nothing to my book that you've destroyed the printing press afterwards.

                  You can't see through the angel's cover using special demon or Stigmatic rules because it's output, not Infrastructure.


                  Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
                  WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
                  The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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                  • #10
                    Interesting point, the only main reason the infastructure in question would still be active in my opinion is a) the description of how demons gain their cover in the fall and b) to maintain the angelic cover and repair degredation.

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                    • #11
                      That's fair, and makes for interesting game opportunities. Concealement and Logistical Infrastructure may exist to support the angel's cover, but they're not necessarily the same (or even related to) those used initially outputting the angel's cover. For example, the local branch of a national bank may be concealing the Logistical Infrastructure that ensures all the angel's bills are paid and that it never suffers credit checks or any monetary delay, but that Logistical Infrastructure may have had nothing to do with outputting the angel's cover as a moderately successful businessman. The Infrastructure that combined for the occult matrix that outputted the angel happened, complete with a cover, and the Logistical infrastructure kicked in moments later, plugging an angel-cover-shaped plug into an angel-cover shaped socket.

                      Now, what I'm suggesting is that the order of gameplay events are reversed. Because the angel's cover is output, not Infrastructure, it can't be spotted as Infrastructure. *But*, demons could discover the bank and look to subborn or disrupt it. Once they've done that, they look closely at who this affects, especially those who don't appear to have a 'normal' reaction. Dozens of people ring the bank and complain to the manager, or accuse the branch of fraud, or threaten to sue. Probably not angels. There is that customer who hasn't called and doesn't seem to have noticed the change. In fact, the first he seemed to notice was when his electricity was cut off. Now the demons have a lead. It could be that he's just so rich that he's never even thought about money the same as normal people, but it could be that it's an angel suffering a setback to its purpose. With observation and investigation, the demons could work out what this angel's mission is and what they're going to do with it.

                      The tl;dr version is that it's likely more difficult to discover cover-maintaining Infrastructure by following an angel's cover back to a location (but you might discover other Infrastructure), but you could discover an angel under cover by disrupting Infrastructure of unknown purpose and just seeing what happens.


                      Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
                      WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
                      The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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                      • #12
                        Bunyip, great information, and I hope we get in some version of it in a future supplement.

                        But questions:

                        what you've just described is much more robust than what's described in the Mortal Mask Numina (and Innocuous, for that matter), and several Angels have it. What benefit does an Angel have from Mortal Mask, when G-M provides a much more versatile option that doesn't eat up a Numina slot?

                        Second, on page 183 of DTD, it says "The methods of magical occlusion the God-Machine uses to mask its works from mortal eyes do not function against the Unchained." Onyx path has the tendency to veer poetic when describing rules, but the statement seems to rule out a distinction between Infrastructure and Output in terms of what demons can't see.

                        Finally, is the G-m generated cover a function of the same Occult Matrix that summoned the angel in the first place, or is a second Matrix necessary?

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                        • #13
                          Agentwestmer I'll admit this has some holes. I'm trying to fill them. Thank you for raising valid points.

                          For the mortal mask numina though it can come close to covering the needs of cover with reading the description of how demons gain cover it doesn't quite explain that. Then ontop of that, mechanically all the numina would do is allow them to appear human; for brief time at great essance cost on top of essance bleed if they aren't in infastructure; it does nothing to allow them to blend into a role beyond bystander, pedestrian etc.

                          The fact that by this method yes, a demon or stigmatic should be able to see through it is a flaw since they shouldn't be able to. That's a flaw I'm having a hard time solving. Even if it was an output, it should still be able to be seen through by demons or stigmatics so that isn't a solution.

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                          • #14
                            The workaround I've used is treating Cover as a manifestation that:
                            1. Halts essence bleed while in effect (I treat is a a portable Infrastructure condition)
                            2. Renders angels as human seeming as per Mortal Mask

                            It's not a perfect fix, but Angels (and exiles) generally have more Manifestations than they need and it lets them operate outside of Infrastructure and frees up Numina slots. If they need to go full on bio-mechanical horrror form they can do it for a scene and keep the essence bleed minimal.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Agentwestmer View Post
                              Second, on page 183 of DTD, it says "The methods of magical occlusion the God-Machine uses to mask its works from mortal eyes do not function against the Unchained." Onyx path has the tendency to veer poetic when describing rules, but the statement seems to rule out a distinction between Infrastructure and Output in terms of what demons can't see.
                              The ability to perceive active Infrastructure does not give you a sense for whether something is a product of Infrastructure. If there's something less solid than actual cover blocking a project from registering to mortals, be it spatial folding or a run-of-the-mill pay-it-no-mind field, the Unchained can see the hidden structure or its interface within conventional space, but a Cover is an actual body keeping an angel from casual detection and thus a lot more substantial than a magical baffle that tells you This Is A Rich Cis-Male Puerto Rican Banker Named Guillermo Mercado, Pay No Attention To His Glowing Eyes And Massive Wingspan.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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