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Angels and the Combat Issue

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Agentwestmer View Post
    DO you remember that moment when you where running your first Dungeons and Dragons game, and the player realized that they were 10th level and the palace guards were all first level? When they realized they didn't have to be heroes, they could do whatever they wanted to, no matter how depraved?

    ...

    And just because Demons don't have default access doesn't mean that they can't get access. There are at least two or three exploits that can take a demon, or even a ring of demons into twilight, and those exploits are cheap to purchase. Retreating into twilight only a hoping that the players won't follow only lasts until someone reads the embeds/exploits section.
    1. The town guards are not invisible, invincible wizards that can bombard the PCs into submission before moving in for the kill.
    2. You're probably mistaken about the twilight bit.
    3. If blasting everyone is too "cheap," put the insane and insensate tilts on everyone and otherwise soften them up first.

    Require the PCs to fucking RUN when hunter angels show up. Make them do research to learn their banes so they can fight them at all. Make them lure the angels into a Bolthouse where twilight doesn't exist. Make them fight tooth and nail just to get to the point that they are ALLOWED to fight the angel.

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    • #17
      As far as I can tell, there is only one Exploit that allows a Demon by default to enter Twilight, Decoy from the Interface book. There are a few problems with using it against Angels though. One is that it only separates a Demon's Cover from their Demonic form, and said Demonic form is what is in Twilight. Any compromise will stop the exploit and damage to one self causes damage to the other, and the Cover self is still left in the material world, vulnerable. Another problem is that Decoy doesn't put a Demon on the same level of Twilight as Angels, which is the entire point - it is meant for surveillance or for stealthily entering places via Twilight. When the exploit ends, the complete Demon is either at the area the Demonic self or the Cover was at, but only in the physical realm.

      The closest thing I can think of otherwise is Ephemeral Cover, which allows you to take pieces of Corpus to make a Ghost or Spirit cover. Slight problem with that too - it doesn't innately allow you to see into Twilight to do so, and it notes that in the exploit itself. You need another means to see Ghosts or Spirits unless they're manifested, and even if you do manage to make such a Cover, remember that Angels are on a different wavelength of Twilight than them. There is a suggested Near-Field gadget that are basically glasses to let you see into Twilight, but it makes no mention of which Twilight either.

      The only way to really take the fight to Angels themselves via exploits is to Near-Field a gadget to allow you to do so. However, that is its own kettle of fish, since Angels can see intruders into Twilight as well, if not easier, as ones in the material realm. If you go popping in like that Angels all around may notice and start lending a hand to their breatheren. It's one thing to start a fight in the material world, with all its distractions and walls and matter. It's another to start it in a realm with few people and where buildings aren't guarenteed to even be there.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
        As far as I can tell, there is only one Exploit that allows a Demon by default to enter Twilight, Decoy from the Interface book. There are a few problems with using it against Angels though. One is that it only separates a Demon's Cover from their Demonic form, and said Demonic form is what is in Twilight. Any compromise will stop the exploit and damage to one self causes damage to the other, and the Cover self is still left in the material world, vulnerable. Another problem is that Decoy doesn't put a Demon on the same level of Twilight as Angels, which is the entire point - it is meant for surveillance or for stealthily entering places via Twilight. When the exploit ends, the complete Demon is either at the area the Demonic self or the Cover was at, but only in the physical realm.

        The closest thing I can think of otherwise is Ephemeral Cover, which allows you to take pieces of Corpus to make a Ghost or Spirit cover. Slight problem with that too - it doesn't innately allow you to see into Twilight to do so, and it notes that in the exploit itself. You need another means to see Ghosts or Spirits unless they're manifested, and even if you do manage to make such a Cover, remember that Angels are on a different wavelength of Twilight than them. There is a suggested Near-Field gadget that are basically glasses to let you see into Twilight, but it makes no mention of which Twilight either.

        The only way to really take the fight to Angels themselves via exploits is to Near-Field a gadget to allow you to do so. However, that is its own kettle of fish, since Angels can see intruders into Twilight as well, if not easier, as ones in the material realm. If you go popping in like that Angels all around may notice and start lending a hand to their breatheren. It's one thing to start a fight in the material world, with all its distractions and walls and matter. It's another to start it in a realm with few people and where buildings aren't guarenteed to even be there.
        Well, there is the Exploit: Reality Enforcement. It cause Angels to Materialize and blocks them their Numina. It just also robs Demons of most of their powers, too.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

          Well, there is the Exploit: Reality Enforcement. It cause Angels to Materialize and blocks them their Numina. It just also robs Demons of most of their powers, too.
          True, their material state and lack of Numina is a significant advantage for a Demon. Still, as noted, Angels tend to have some pretty high stats and Influences aren't affected, so an Angel can still use brute force if need be. The exploit also implies gadgets are affected by it too, since they work off the same logic as the God-Machine.

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          • #20
            Reality Enforcement certainly does bring Angels into punching range, but it also removes the problem caused by Just Bruised and Shift Consequences. Now we're back to a contest of raw stats, and Angels have very good raw stats. Form Abilities could help swing things for the Demon... unless you also put Form Abilities on Angels (which is something I've done sporadically, when it made sense, but usually only 1-2 Form Abilities per Angel). And, as mentioned by Taidragon, the Angels can fight back with Influences.

            It is also of limited range, capping out at a 40 yard radius, and Angels are fast. Doesn't take a lot of backpedalling to get out of range.

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            • #21
              Ephemeral Cover and Decoy still don't bring you to the twilight *that angels are in* as far as I can tell. The double edged sword of facing angels without embeds and exploits being one of the few ways to force a battle with them seems pretty neat.

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              • #22
                I remember this argument and like back then, I fully agree with what Azahul and Satch have previously stated. And like what has also been stated it should always be kept in mind that angels shouldn't be used as stock foot soldiers or monsters of the week - thats what cultists/ mortals under the effects of Infrastructure and Cryptids are for. Angels, especially hunter-angels, are nemeses for the PCs, and unless they are crazy over prepared the first ( or even third or fourth) encounter with said hunters - assuming that no one gets killed by Image/Blast spamming or other wonderful tricks - should always end with a retreat on the players part until they discover how to make the fight more even. But even at that point, like what has been said again and again = play dirty and never fight fair; if they want a challenge show them why the God-Machine rules reality

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
                  As far as I can tell, there is only one Exploit that allows a Demon by default to enter Twilight, Decoy from the Interface book. There are a few problems with using it against Angels though. One is that it only separates a Demon's Cover from their Demonic form, and said Demonic form is what is in Twilight. Any compromise will stop the exploit and damage to one self causes damage to the other, and the Cover self is still left in the material world, vulnerable. Another problem is that Decoy doesn't put a Demon on the same level of Twilight as Angels, which is the entire point - it is meant for surveillance or for stealthily entering places via Twilight. When the exploit ends, the complete Demon is either at the area the Demonic self or the Cover was at, but only in the physical realm.

                  The closest thing I can think of otherwise is Ephemeral Cover, which allows you to take pieces of Corpus to make a Ghost or Spirit cover. Slight problem with that too - it doesn't innately allow you to see into Twilight to do so, and it notes that in the exploit itself. You need another means to see Ghosts or Spirits unless they're manifested, and even if you do manage to make such a Cover, remember that Angels are on a different wavelength of Twilight than them. There is a suggested Near-Field gadget that are basically glasses to let you see into Twilight, but it makes no mention of which Twilight either.

                  The only way to really take the fight to Angels themselves via exploits is to Near-Field a gadget to allow you to do so. However, that is its own kettle of fish, since Angels can see intruders into Twilight as well, if not easier, as ones in the material realm. If you go popping in like that Angels all around may notice and start lending a hand to their breatheren. It's one thing to start a fight in the material world, with all its distractions and walls and matter. It's another to start it in a realm with few people and where buildings aren't guarenteed to even be there.

                  Rip the gates can let them enter twilight.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Basic View Post


                    Rip the gates can let them enter twilight.

                    Rip the Gates takes you to the Shadow, the Underworld, the Astral Realms, or the Hedge. It's pretty specific where it goes and where it doesn't.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post


                      Rip the Gates takes you to the Shadow, the Underworld, the Astral Realms, or the Hedge. It's pretty specific where it goes and where it doesn't.

                      I take that list as suggestions on places most people go not the only places. Plus its more fun to see all the places people can go with it

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                      • #26
                        By RAW it's an exhaustive list, not a list of suggestions. But even if you do house rule it to allow other realms, Twilight is not a realm.
                        Last edited by Tessie; 04-24-2018, 06:40 PM.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Basic View Post


                          I take that list as suggestions on places most people go not the only places. Plus its more fun to see all the places people can go with it
                          As Tessie said, Twilight isn’t an otherworld like the Ethereal Plane from DnD was. Neter-Khertet from Mummy somewhat blurs the linea, and recent Geist 2E spoilers do include Cenotes and such as part of the Underworld... but they’re either exceptions to the rule or more of poetic/common language that pervades CofD.


                          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                          • #28
                            I have to agree with the others on this; Twilight is a state of being, a state of reality, where emotion, memory and thought shape the world more than actual matter does. It's no more a realm than ultraviolet light would be. The fact that Twilight doesn't exist in most other realms is a sign that those realms operate under different occult rules.

                            In terms of using Rip The Gates to access other realms, I'd devote that more to a Near-field Gadget rather than expanding on the powers of Rip The Gates. That said, I'm not sure I'd allow Rip The Gates in a gadget form to allow a character to access Twilight for the same reasons as above; it's a state of being, and so the gadget would have to transform the person to access it. It also means a character may well get trapped in being in Twilight if the gadget is like a portal, and that's never a good state to be in permanently. After all, normal people aren't able to gain Essence, much less gather it or sustain themselves off it...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
                              I have to agree with the others on this; Twilight is a state of being, a state of reality, where emotion, memory and thought shape the world more than actual matter does. It's no more a realm than ultraviolet light would be. The fact that Twilight doesn't exist in most other realms is a sign that those realms operate under different occult rules.

                              In terms of using Rip The Gates to access other realms, I'd devote that more to a Near-field Gadget rather than expanding on the powers of Rip The Gates. That said, I'm not sure I'd allow Rip The Gates in a gadget form to allow a character to access Twilight for the same reasons as above; it's a state of being, and so the gadget would have to transform the person to access it. It also means a character may well get trapped in being in Twilight if the gadget is like a portal, and that's never a good state to be in permanently. After all, normal people aren't able to gain Essence, much less gather it or sustain themselves off it...
                              If Demons want to enter Twilight, generally speaking they rip the face off a Ghost or Spirit (or Goetia?) and wear it via Ephemeral Cover (I'm pretty sure that works). Note that this exclude Angels. Angels being able to hang out in Twilight is a consistent advantage they have. Sense the Angelic (Form Modification) only tells you if they are in the area on Influence/Numina use.


                              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Basic View Post
                                I take that list as suggestions on places most people go not the only places. Plus its more fun to see all the places people can go with it
                                Setting aside the points others have made (Rip the Gates is an exhaustive list, and Twilight isn't a place you can go so much as it is a state you can be in), I would be extremely wary of giving Demons an ability they don't have by default. This topic originally came up because of Agentwestmer making the assertion that Demons can use Exploits to gain access to Twilight in order to fight Angels. This isn't actually the case, the handful of Exploits that do grant access to Twilight always put the Demon on a different wavelength to Angels or otherwise make it impossible to use those abilities for combat purposes. And since Demons are meant to fear Angels, not having a capacity to fight Angels on an equal footing appears to be very much an intentional part of the design of Demons' suite of powers. Handwaving and letting your players do something that goes against a core weakness of the splat they are playing isn't something to allow lightly.

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