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  • Questions about Heirs to Hell

    Bored, I was Looking, on DriveThruRPG, at Heirs to Hell and at first glance it seems like it could be a nice addition to WoD Demon: The Fallen. However before committing to it I do have a couple questions I hope you might be able to answers.

    1) Based on the blurb, it looks like a great product, but is it? In broad stokes, what is the actual content?
    2) Would the translation guide be sufficient to convert it over or do I really need to get the Demon: The Descent corebook?
    3) Are any other book needed? Either because they also cover the Children of Demon or add additional rules to play them, etc. (Please indicate why in order to help me).
    4) Anything else I overlooked?

    I'm sure more question will come up, but this should get me started.

    thank you

  • #2
    1) I really like it; it expands on what was a totally throwaway sidebar in the Descent core and turns it into something really cool and creepy. It describes the different kinds of demonic children, how they figure into the God-Machine's machinations, and a bunch of plot hooks. There are some Merits, too.
    2) You might be able to muddle through with just the Translation Guide, but the core is necessary to get the most bang for your buck.
    3) The Demon Storyteller's Guide has some stuff on an alternate (though not contradictory) version of demon children called Nephilim, which actually might work even better in a Fallen context.



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    • #3
      Yossarian

      Thank you, that's actually pretty handy to know, especially the 3rd point.

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      • #4
        The experience of the demon-blooded offspring of the Unchained presented in Heirs to Hell is pretty focused around two things: a) growing up with cosmic, causality-breaching abilities, how that shapes you and affects what you do with your life, and b) the uneasy balance between comfort and love with parents whom the rest of the world would find alien, and the stress introduced by those parents constantly avoiding the notice of powerful, merciless enemies. The subject of demon-blooded with cynical or unsympathetic demonic heritage is covered, but I would expect it to be stronger in terms of children of lower-Torment Fallen. The espionage angle is pretty pervasive either way, so a Fallen game using the material will be somewhat out of joint without a focus on antagonism from lesser angels, Imbued hunters, Fallen-hunting Earthbound cults, or some other force that might introduce a similar pressure to stay low and reveal oneself only when prepared to exercise overwhelming force.

        You're really gonna want the Descent corebook to make it work; kludging it with the Translation Guide alone is hypothetically possible, but would be about as much work as homebrewing the entire concept yourself anyway.. The Translation Guide is a good pickup if you don't have it already, presenting some good options on not only using one system to run the other game, but also suggestions on frameworks which can steal good ideas from one game to apply in the context of the other as well.

        For a little more context, the demon-blooded of Heirs to Hell are more human than fallen angel, perhaps more reflecting how humanity might have worked miracles in the age of wonders before the Fall. Their book focuses more on family relationships: sometimes warm, sometimes cold, but usually rich and complicated. Their risk of overextension is tied to the forces which dog their demonic families gaining purchase through tracing their movements. The Nephilim from the Storyteller's Guide mentioned by Yossarian exist in a less comfortable middle state: they exercise grosser demonic powers and even manifest incomplete apocalyptic forms, but their power is unstable and threatens them mind, body and soul. Their section of their book has a more cynical tone, wherein Nephilim are less often closely bonded treasures and more often useful catspaws, proxies and lieutenants. Their risk of overextension magnifies their raw power but looses their control over it and ultimately their sanity, threatening to devolve into monsters to be put down.

        Using the Nephilim doesn't require the Heirs to Hell book, and the Heirs to Hell book doesn't reference the Nephilim.

        No other books are necessary.

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        • #5
          Heirs to Hell is hands down one of my favourite books. I don't know anything about Fallen, but if you ever play Descent it is a must-buy.


          Freelancer - Dark Eras 2
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          • #6
            @Stupid Loserman

            That really helps clarify things a lot and it does look like the Nephilim might be a bit easier to port over "themewise" than the Demon-blooded, although, as you said, add enough pressure and we're in business.

            So book-wise: Heirs of Hell, the Storyteller Guide, the Corebook (and I guess the Chronicle of Darkness base book too) and the translation guide would be enough.

            any added value for the Demon-blooded/Nephilim in getting Flowers of Hell or not really?

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            • #7
              Flowers of Hell has a player options chapter for new powers, including Embeds (relevant to both demon-blooded and Nephilim), Exploits (Nephilim) and demonic form abilities (Nephilim). Descent has some pretty cool powers, and Flowers of Hell isn't an exception. I would not be too worried about getting it though; the Descent corebook and Translation Guide together will equip you with cool powers aplenty.

              Edit: I said something about Integrity here, but it's moot because Heirs to Hell also includes the same information.

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              • #8
                Good to know, might be handy as a later purchase though, but focus on the more important book at first.

                Edit: on DriveThruRPG, the description of the Corebook indicate this:
                Requires the World of Darkness core rulebook. Includes the rules updates from The God-Machine Chronicle.
                If I understand correctly, I do need to get the Chronicle of Darkness Book, but I Don't need to worry about the God-machine Chronicle (which to my understanding is pretty much mostly included in the CofD book). Correct?
                Last edited by Boneguard; 05-13-2018, 08:28 PM.

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                • #9
                  Any version of the CofD core rules will work. The 1e World of Darkness Rulebook will work (there is an appendix in Demon that covers everything to update it to second edition rules - that's the included rules update mentioned). The 2e Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook will work. Any other Chronicles of Darkness 2e corebook will work too, like Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition, as Demon is the only 2e corebook not to contain the standalone rule system.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                    Any version of the CofD core rules will work. The 1e World of Darkness Rulebook will work (there is an appendix in Demon that covers everything to update it to second edition rules - that's the included rules update mentioned). The 2e Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook will work. Any other Chronicles of Darkness 2e corebook will work too, like Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition, as Demon is the only 2e corebook not to contain the standalone rule system.
                    That's unfortunate that Demon does not have a stand alone corebook.

                    Since I don't have any NWoD or CofD core rule, it look like I'll need to get it too.

                    thank you al, It's really helpful.

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                    • #11
                      imo, you don't need any other book but D:tD as it has an appendix on the base CofD rules.Not sure where you got that but D:tD definitely has the Stand-Alone rules.



                      Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                        imo, you don't need any other book but D:tD as it has an appendix on the base CofD rules.Not sure where you got that but D:tD definitely has the Stand-Alone rules.

                        No it doesn't. It has the God-Machine Update, it still requires the 1e core book to use as others said.

                        On the other hand, for Boneguard since you are planning to use the Translation Guide to run Demon: The Fallen, you may not need the missing rules since they are things that probably won't need to be translated as it is all mortals rules, just use the rules from Fallen.



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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                          imo, you don't need any other book but D:tD as it has an appendix on the base CofD rules.Not sure where you got that but D:tD definitely has the Stand-Alone rules.
                          It might be the case, however in the Corebook description, both on DriveThruRPG and Indie Press Revolution, it is explicitly stated the Word of Darkness Rule Book is required.

                          In addition, on DriveThruRPG, both the Demon starter kit and The Demon translation kit include the World of Darkness Rule Book

                          I'm sure you are right, DtD could be usable alone with minimal fuss, but by the official description, It's not a stand-alone product.

                          ElvesofZion

                          That is a fair point. I might hold off on getting it and see how it goes. Worse case, it could be part of a second wave of purchase.
                          Last edited by Boneguard; 05-14-2018, 08:10 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post


                            No it doesn't. It has the God-Machine Update, it still requires the 1e core book to use as others said.
                            I think old hands get confused, because once you've played CofD long enough, you internalize enough of the core rules that you can mentally backfill the missing information in the Rules Update and run the game just referencing that. People without experience in CofD are not going to be able to do that.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post

                              I think old hands get confused, because once you've played CofD long enough, you internalize enough of the core rules that you can mentally backfill the missing information in the Rules Update and run the game just referencing that. People without experience in CofD are not going to be able to do that.
                              I mean, that might be the case here with me. But looking at Appendix Two now it has:
                              1. Descriptions on Aspirations
                              2. Extensive Mortal Merits
                              3. Description of Beats and Experiences
                              4. A note on Virtue and Vice
                              5. Extensive notes on What Conditions and Tilts are
                              6. How to run Extended Actions and Social Maneuvering
                              7. Full description on Combat and with a summary
                              8. Lost of weapons/armor and what they do
                              9. Description of harm
                              10. Full rules for Ephemeral Beings

                              ... Although, Now that I'm looking through it, it's not giving anything on what dice to use (10s), what constitutes a failure/success on a role, the nitty gritty of how the health boxes work (/ for bashing, x for lethal, * for Aggravated), and it's missing some descriptions on what attributes and skills even are which I am seeing in other 2nd Edition Core books (like W:tF2e's Chapter 4).

                              It looks like the God-Machine Chronicle has a better more complete run-down of the base rules and they're already in 2nd Ed revision. But unlike WoD 1st Edition, it doesn't have (over)detailed descriptions of each skill and attribute and it doesn't have full examples of how health loss is calculated or healed.

                              I'd like to think you'd only need the God-Machine Chronicle to understand D:tD if you've never played a White Wolf/Onyx Path game before. But looking back, I'd replace that with the World of Darkness 1st Edition Core and just note that any revisions in Appendix 2 of D:tD generally over wright the equivalent rules stated in the WoD1e Core.



                              Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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