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Do angels have any Form abilities?

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  • Do angels have any Form abilities?

    My understanding of combat in DtD is academic - I have only read the game and not run it. But angels seem a bit underwhelming. Numina seem weaker than Exploits, and I don't see any rules for angels having Forms. "Mr. Shivers" is an angel listed as having a knife-hand, but not the form modification Blade Hand.

    Are angels as written that powerful in combat?

    Do angels get Form abilities?

    (Thanks for everyone's help in understanding these things. I know some of this must be old ideas for some readers.)

  • #2
    RAW angels do not get form abilities but I do not see why you wouldn't be able to convert a form ability into a numina. If cryptids are able to take numina or demon form powers in place of an adaptation I can't see why an angel shouldn't be able to have access to a demon form power especially with the fluff of how a demon gained those abilities.

    As to if angels are powerful in combat like other ephemeral beings as they gain rank they get far stronger. A R1 may not be all that strong but a R3 angel is vastly stronger.

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    • #3
      1) If this is going to be a continuing line of inquiry, may I suggest either a) developing a personal question thread or b) frequenting the Ask a Simple Question thread.

      2) I'm about to discuss why Angels have so much more power than any of the other ones, but it's worth noting that while it is somewhat overstacking to give them Form Abilities, it definitely can be fun, and compared to Embeds or Exploits it actually makes some sense to see angels with Form Abilities. That said, there's some overkill, because...

      3) [WARNING, LIST INCOMING] Angels are the most powerful ephemeral entity out there, for a number of reasons but mostly because of four point five big ones*.
      *I don't have my books right now, so I'm winging on memory here.

      3a) Angels tend to have their resources game down pat, being put out into the Infrastructure it's going to be working in response to that will in turn help to provide Essence for their operations (I know there's some conversation around this right now, but as far as I remember right now, part of the point of Infrastructure is to maintain the upkeep of Essence-whether or not the mechanics ever properly communicated that or not is another matter), often with the backup of a cult consisting of mortals, stigmatics, and cryptids, their resources, and the ways they can turn their resource into Essence. On top of that, they have all the essentials to playing their Cover, so that's is still more tools to work with. My point is that they usually don't lack for fuel to burn, people to employ, tools to work with, or shelter to work from.

      3b) Angels, as I mentioned in a another thread, use Cover to shortcut through a large portion of Manifestations, which has two big advantages, namely a) for the purpose of which they are in the game, they get a handwave summation of everything they've got in the form of Cover, and b) this allows them to approach the Manifestations they have in a different way, less a means of getting on the board and more of a means expanding their tools of interaction. Basically, they get to toy around with Manifestations more, and as such those tools can lead to creepier and more direct results. Also, auto-Discorporation is a neat trick for ensuring that Angels can find ways to stick around 'til the mission truly is hit or missed.

      3c) Angel's Numina are just hands down more powerful. First off, any Angel within Infrastructure conditions gains a +2 to their Numina's pool or can be even more cost efficient by shaving off an Essence from each Numina use-and hey, your angels should be operating where there's Infrastructure, it's where they are supposed to be. The implementation of their powers run, in certain circumstances, a chance of instilling Faith in any nearby Mortals, which expands the resource base by having more people who are easily affected by their Numina. And finally, angel specific Numina is just really powerful and incredibly versatile tool set, some bluntly powerful and showy, and others having deeply insidious and potent effect. It's hard to argue against that.

      3c.5) Technically speaking, there's nothing really powerful or exceptional about Angelic Influence, but Influences in general are kind of freaking powerful, so I wanted to make sure people remembered that. FOURTH POINT.

      3d) On top of the usual set of Manifestations, Influences, and Numina, Angels have a fourth set called Incepts that influence the latter two of the three as well as their basic state(usually, there's one that doesn't boost any of their attributes or advantages). Now, that may not sound big, but Incepts radically change the parameters of Numina and Influences as well as boost themselves. A Rank 1 Angel with the right Incept can pack an unexpected punch or become a very obnoxious pawn, a Rank 3 Angel goes from the usual troublemaker of a story scale to a scene-stealing juggernaught, and a Rank 5 Angel using Incepts becomes the terror and grandeur of heaven in a single entity-Incepts are pretty much designed to evoke the big miracles of varying religions. Now, these have the benefit of basically being a "Here's Asshole" sign to anyone with aetheric resonance and also carries a light implication of their using indicating a angel is often off the beaten path since they ARE so showy, so it's not constant game-changer because using them is an open risk for most angels, but it does mean that any time an angel wants to step up their game and just be done with this hellish interference, they've got at least a big gun to change the nature( and upward to five, dependent on Rank).

      So, long story short, angels are well equipped and given really powerful tools to work with that makes them tough to tango with, and a proper understanding and exploitation of the Ephemeral Being Rules with a devious and crafty GM will lead to hours of player wailing, particularly on home ground.

      SO, yeah, you could give them Form Abilities, but I do feel like it might be overkill.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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      • #4
        Thanks for the reply! I was working off the DtD book, and had not seen Incepts. They are absolutely a game-changer. Without them it seemed that angels were not the Holy Terror the setting implied.

        I don't mean to upset the way this forum is run. I am used to a forum where each question is a separate topic. I am not sure how to proceed. I'll probably post to the "Ask a Simple Question" thread for most of my queries.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by KieranMullen View Post
          Thanks for the reply! I was working off the DtD book, and had not seen Incepts. They are absolutely a game-changer. Without them it seemed that angels were not the Holy Terror the setting implied.

          I don't mean to upset the way this forum is run. I am used to a forum where each question is a separate topic. I am not sure how to proceed. I'll probably post to the "Ask a Simple Question" thread for most of my queries.
          No worries, just letting you know that it might be easier(it is easier to do posts then new forum threads, and keeping track of them is usually easier when they are in the same basket).


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Another thing that should be stated - Angels are extremely hard to affect when they don't want to be. Being Ephemeral, they can shift to Twilight. But unlike Ghosts and Spirits (and, to a lesser extent, Goetia), there isn't any common way to interact with Angelic Twilight. Demons notably do not have a way of affecting it, so an Angel that doesn't feel like playing ball any more can just shift to Twilight - and other than exploying their Ban/Bane, there is little you can do to stop them.


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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            • #7
              So anytime an Angel has a lot of Lethal damage on his Health track, he can decide to "discorporate" to play it safe?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pluvinarch View Post
                So anytime an Angel has a lot of Lethal damage on his Health track, he can decide to "discorporate" to play it safe?
                Better a short recuperation, rather than losing the God-Machine such a valuable asset. They won't if the situation is critical, but otherwise, why not?


                Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                • #9
                  Only if they have the Discorporate Manifestation (which i believe would be common for angels). Otherwise there's no willing discorporation; only the forced discorporation that happens when the last Corpus box gets filled with lethal or aggravated damage.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    Only if they have the Discorporate Manifestation (which i believe would be common for angels). Otherwise there's no willing discorporation; only the forced discorporation that happens when the last Corpus box gets filled with lethal or aggravated damage.
                    And this is why having at least 1 essance is so important, so you don't die but simply hibernate.

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                    • #11
                      Argh!!! None of the descriptions of specific angels that I have found have assigned Incepts. I understand that they get one Incept per Rank, but is the Incept a fixed one (like Numina) assigned to the angel. ("Angel Fred knows the Time Incept"), or can they activate any of the listed Incepts ("Hmm.... Fred needs more punch, let's have him choose to activate the Unit Incept.")?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KieranMullen View Post
                        My understanding of combat in DtD is academic - I have only read the game and not run it. But angels seem a bit underwhelming. Numina seem weaker than Exploits, and I don't see any rules for angels having Forms. "Mr. Shivers" is an angel listed as having a knife-hand, but not the form modification Blade Hand.

                        Are angels as written that powerful in combat?

                        Do angels get Form abilities?

                        (Thanks for everyone's help in understanding these things. I know some of this must be old ideas for some readers.)
                        So like aren’t demons able to access all incepts when going loud? Why aren’t all angels that powerful?


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KieranMullen View Post
                          Argh!!! None of the descriptions of specific angels that I have found have assigned Incepts. I understand that they get one Incept per Rank, but is the Incept a fixed one (like Numina) assigned to the angel. ("Angel Fred knows the Time Incept&quot, or can they activate any of the listed Incepts ("Hmm.... Fred needs more punch, let's have him choose to activate the Unit Incept.&quot?
                          Going by the information provided in the link below, I would presume Angels have an Incept assigned to them like Numina. As for why most Angels don’t have Incepts attached to them, it’s probably due to the fact that Incepts were only added in via the Storyteller’s Guide, so listing them in other books either wasn’t possible or simply would be confusing to those without the ST Guide. As the thread has somewhat demonstrated, Angels aren’t exactly in dire need of more firepower.

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...extra-material

                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                          So like aren’t demons able to access all incepts when going loud? Why aren’t all angels that powerful?
                          Demons gain access to all Embeds that match their Incarnation, as well as the Exploits that are attached to them. Exploits are a cobbled together replacement for the high powers Angels have (such as Incepts). Remember that a Demon is warped God-Machine hardware, so they don’t function 1 to 1 compared to an Angel.

                          As for why Angels aren’t all as powerful as a Going Loud Demon, it’s because they’re specialized for their tasks. Some certainly can get that strong, but remember that Going Loud is a) extremely unsubtle, and b) temporary. Angels...don’t really need an Angelic variant, they don’t need to hide like Demons do, they can call for assistance from other Angels if need be, and they have the backing and information of the God-Machine on their side. If they need to escape in a hurry, Twilight is their most basic means. What’s the point of removing valuable resources from the God-Machine when you can just fight another day against foes with fewer resources and bigger penalties?
                          Last edited by Taidragon; 09-10-2018, 01:54 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

                            Going by the information provided in the link below, I would presume Angels have an Incept assigned to them like Numina. As for why most Angels don’t have Incepts attached to them, it’s probably due to the fact that Incepts were only added in via the Storyteller’s Guide, so listing them in other books either wasn’t possible or simply would be confusing to those without the ST Guide. As the thread has somewhat demonstrated, Angels aren’t exactly in dire need of more firepower.
                            Except oddly, there are no Incepts listed even for the angels in the Storyteller's Guide, which introduces the concept of Incepts!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                              So like aren’t demons able to access all incepts when going loud? Why aren’t all angels that powerful?
                              Demons never have access to Incepts.


                              Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
                              WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams | CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades, Night Horrors: Shunned by the Moon, Mummy: The Curse 2nd ed | The Trinity Continuum Æon, Æon Æxpansion, Aberrant

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