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Where Angels Fear to Tread - Demon Beyond the World of Darkness

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  • Where Angels Fear to Tread - Demon Beyond the World of Darkness

    So, I got to thinking the other day: if it were possible for a Demon to leave the World of Darkness - not just go to the Shadow or something but to truly 'jump' to another world - would they be able to actually operate there? Are their Embeds, Exploits, Covers and so on workable in a world where the God-Machine has no presence? If Covers are sufficiently a 'part' of the Unchained to operate without the G-M, would they degrade at all without Its scrutiny? Would a Demon be able to stay in Demonic Form indefinitely, or just enter it 'for free' in shorter bursts to replenish Aether in the absence of Infrastructure to siphon from (presuming they don't have some form of suborned Infrastructure that they can bring with them as a generator)? Perhaps most basically, are they self-contained enough to be able to survive without the Machine?

    This is less practical than it is a thought experiment, but I'd appreciate thoughts and opinions.

  • Deinos
    replied
    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
    Demons can't learn Essence Drain, though - it's a Numen, not an Embed, Exploit or Demonic Form power. There's always developing Sun's Bounty as a Demonic Form, I guess.
    Ignoring Show of Power, I was reading out of the book regarding the Form power, Essence Drain.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
    Hmm. It would fit with the whole 'demonic pacts' theme. Perhaps a demon can consume a pact for Aether equal to twice the rating of said pact (e.g. a pact for someone's pet (lesser) would yield 2 Aether, one for a boyfriend (medial) would yield 4 and one for a close family member (greater) would yield 6), or for a large amount (ideas for quantities welcome) if the pact is a Soul Pact.
    What about Cover Experiences * 2 Aether? For Soul Pacts, just liquidate the Cover dots you would have gained by claiming them as a Cover into Cover XP.

    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
    Though I'm not sure what would happen to the stuff that actually got bargained for - presumably, its connections to both the Demon and the human would be permanently severed.
    Yeah, the status of stuff from "Pact made" to "Integrated into a Cover" is kinda uncertain.

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  • ajf115
    replied
    Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
    Essence Drain is a Technology.
    I stand (well, sit) corrected.

    Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
    You could allow for Pacts to grant Aether. I mean, they kinda already can, in that you could make a Patchwork, then Go Loud with it to refill your pool.

    Pacts, I would say, are fully a function of Demonic Primum, and thus would work in some manner regardless of local supporting Infrastructure (unless the current reality is too incompatible, of course).
    Hmm. It would fit with the whole 'demonic pacts' theme. Perhaps a demon can consume a pact for Aether equal to twice the rating of said pact (e.g. a pact for someone's pet (lesser) would yield 2 Aether, one for a boyfriend (medial) would yield 4 and one for a close family member (greater) would yield 6), or for a large amount (ideas for quantities welcome) if the pact is a Soul Pact. Though I'm not sure what would happen to the stuff that actually got bargained for - presumably, its connections to both the Demon and the human would be permanently severed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vent0
    replied
    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
    Demons can't learn Essence Drain, though - it's a Numen, not an Embed, Exploit or Demonic Form power. There's always developing Sun's Bounty as a Demonic Form, I guess.
    Essence Drain is a Technology.

    You could allow for Pacts to grant Aether. I mean, they kinda already can, in that you could make a Patchwork, then Go Loud with it to refill your pool.

    Pacts, I would say, are fully a function of Demonic Primum, and thus would work in some manner regardless of local supporting Infrastructure (unless the current reality is too incompatible, of course).

    Leave a comment:


  • ajf115
    replied
    Originally posted by Deinos View Post
    Even if you decide that a demon form cannot collect aether in a realm the GM absolutely doesn't exist in, there's always the possibility of Essence Drain: "At the Storyteller’s discretion, this may work on supernatural creatures not fueled by Essence or Aether."
    Demons can't learn Essence Drain, though - it's a Numen, not an Embed, Exploit or Demonic Form power. There's always developing Sun's Bounty as a Demonic Form, I guess.
    Last edited by ajf115; 11-03-2018, 10:20 AM.

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  • Deinos
    replied
    Even if you decide that a demon form cannot collect aether in a realm the GM absolutely doesn't exist in, there's always the possibility of Essence Drain: "At the Storyteller’s discretion, this may work on supernatural creatures not fueled by Essence or Aether."

    Leave a comment:


  • ajf115
    replied
    Perhaps we could homebrew some way for a completed Cipher to allow generation of Aether? Maybe something could be done with that Pentacle homebrew, where you can add a final Exploit to the Cipher. Or maybe some kind of transhuman (transdemonic?) modification or transformation might allow the same, analogous to a Beast's Inheritance or what-have-you.
    Last edited by ajf115; 11-03-2018, 04:54 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Deinos View Post
    They could even generate their own aether.
    Aether is the byproduct of what the God-Machine does with Essence. No.

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  • Deinos
    replied
    A major element of the game is finding a realm beyond the touch of the God Machine. It would be perfectly inane if succeeding crippled or killed them. They do often rely on occult physics mapped out by the God Machine, but then again, many other supernatural splats also rely on the same occult physics. The near universal fan answer to "demons trying to find a Hell away from the reach of the God Machine" being "they immediately get BTFO'd" really sucks.

    Gaining Primum means you know how to interface with reality as you once did with the God Machine... so yes, an Unchained could function 100% fine in a realm without the GM. They could even generate their own aether. They are a closed loop of being; existing because they exist. "No longer a part of the God-Machine, the demon is now fully a creature of reality as humans know it."

    A lot of these conversations try to recast the Unchained as just a nerfed version of an Exile.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    Problem is: Demonic Form _collects_ Aether, it doesn't seem to generate it.

    When they are at 0, they can open up their stores and the relative differential of Aether they have to environmental Aether means they collect some.

    A Demon that wants to say "screw you, I'm moving" will need to either:
    A) Figure out hacks that work in the new reality
    B) Take enough Infrastructure with them to apply those hacks to the new reality.

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  • YeOfLittleFaith
    replied
    I've always read the descriptions of the corebook as emphatically suggesting that Embeds and Exploits work based on the underlying occult physics that the God-Machine is built onto, rather than the pathways of the God-Machine itself, it just happens that where it has Infrastructure the difference between the two might be meaningless. Likewise, I don't believe Embeds and Exploits stop working in places so remote or cast-off that the God-Machine has no aligned infrastructure or resources, which implies the distinction, but it's necessarily an ambiguous and hazy line in Demon The Descent.

    So it could be Embeds and Exploits cease to work in an alternate world free of the God-Machine, but because it doesn't share the same occult physics. Or maybe those rules still exist, and they do. But if they do, then maybe the circumstances for the God-Machine to thrive, or to begin exist too.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    It’s not without precedent for a protagonist in the Chronicles of Darkness to have to sacrifice power to attain freedom: Prometheans in their pursuit of the New Dawn eventually have to give up their powers to be liberated from the triple burden of Torment, Disquiet, and Wasteland; when a mummy achieves Apotheosis, its Sekhem is permanently stuck at 1. So it wouldn’t surprise me in the least that an Unchained who finally reaches a Hell where the God-Machine has no presence at all will find that his Embeds and Exploits don’t work there: those powers are, after all, the result of hacking the God-Machine.

    I figure that his Demonic Form will continue to work, and he’ll probably retain his Covers; heck, he might even retain the Keys and Interlocks of his Cipher, though I wouldn’t even guarantee that — though the final secret of his Cipher might be along the lines of realizing that the God-Machine itself is merely tapping into a deeper truth, which the demon can now exploit directly without having to go through the God-Machine. Or the final secret might be learning how to build his own Infrastructure, effectively creating a new and independent “mini-GM” that serves him.

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  • ajf115
    replied
    Originally posted by Korogra View Post

    To an extent. Primum 10 demon’s still require Aether and at least some sort of piece of the Machine to make effective use of their powers sadly.
    Well, the Aether can be restored by Demonic Form. Though I guess it's said to be a receptacle for/attract ambient Aether rather than produce it...

    Well, there's always the possibility of bringing or learning to make some gadget (not necessarily Gadget) that's Infrastructure-ey enough to produce Aether.

    Perhaps a Near-Field Exploited Gadget of Devour Infrastructure that consumes something (valuable things, meat, coleslaw, life, souls, whatever) and produces Aether?
    Last edited by ajf115; 11-01-2018, 11:16 AM.

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  • White Oak Dragon
    replied
    Originally posted by ajf115 View Post
    What, so if people tend to zone out when doing something boring, then Ellipses works? That makes sense.
    Exactly. I could also see an argument for allowing Embeds that normally wouldn’t function in a reality being treated as Exploits.

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