Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sample Combat: Angel vs. Demon

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Doesn't seem like an Incept is going to damage an angel cover to me, but in some areas it could be quite dangerous -- like in an area where there are lots of demons (or in a crossover game, mages etc). Its especially dangerous for an angel that guards a static site -- if its a heavily inhabited area.

    Incepts/Aetheric Resonance doesn't reach very far -- even if there is a God among the Unchained in an area, it will need to be in a 1 mile area. A beekeper is going to be out in the boonies, so the chance that an Incept will blow their cover is probably close to 0%.

    Comment


    • #17
      It's rare but some beekeepers keep bees on their balconies in the cities (provided the city has a nearby park). Less rare are beekeepers who keep bees in their back yards in suburbs/low density residential areas. My own GF has her bees a bit outside the town proper but there are both a few residences and an allotment garden within a mile.
      Just a side track, though.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Deinos View Post
        Doesn't seem like an Incept is going to damage an angel cover to me.
        The angel is literally fighting a demon, with no knowledge of who this demon is, whether he’s alone or what abilities he may have, and on turn 3 activates a ‘only God Machine angels have these’ power. Unless the demon is killed and the angel can verify that no trace or info went out (good luck since it can’t leave the damn garden!), this cover is toast.


        Writer. Developer. WoD | CofD | The Trinity Continuum 19 books and counting...

        Comment


        • #19
          Except angel covers don't work like demon covers do and do not degrade, as they are maintained by infrastructure.

          The cover is toast in terms of "the demon knows you're a supernatural". But it's all well and good for all other purposes.


          My Bloodline conversions
          My House rules

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Griautis View Post
            Except angel covers don't work like demon covers do and do not degrade, as they are maintained by infrastructure.

            The cover is toast in terms of "the demon knows you're a supernatural". But it's all well and good for all other purposes.
            THe cover doesn't need to degrade when the point of the cover is that it needs to hide the fact that the entity in question is an angel.

            Using an Incept defeats that purpose, and makes the cover useless.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
            Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

            Comment


            • #21
              Considering the amount of resources put into angelic Covers, I don't think it's as black-and-white as "this Cover is compromised and therefor completely useless". What was the angel doing there in the first place? If it's a priority that it performs its duties it might still be preferable to have a compromised (lowercase c) Cover than abandoning the site entirely. Especially if sealing the site from public view isn't possible to seal due to lack of resources or it being too public.
              I would have the beekeeper disappear for a week and then reappear with a new bee hive. Only this beehive is leaking Aether. And the buzzing sounds more like whirring.
              And there's a hunter angel in Twilight hovering above it.

              The bee hive is concealed Infrastructure to fuel the hunter angel. The linchpin is that it siphons honey from the other beehives via underground pipes. It decreases the honey production, which might be noticeable if you know where to look, and might actually fail to work (causing extended Essence bleed for the hunter angel) if the other bees doesn't bring in enough honey. Ruining enough of the other bee hives (that I've now decided are widely spaced) would be a dick move but also effectively ruin the protected bee hive.
              Last edited by Tessie; 01-04-2019, 02:12 PM.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                The angel is literally fighting a demon, with no knowledge of who this demon is, whether he’s alone or what abilities he may have, and on turn 3 activates a ‘only God Machine angels have these’ power. Unless the demon is killed and the angel can verify that no trace or info went out (good luck since it can’t leave the damn garden!), this cover is toast.
                One angel seeing a demon use an Exploit in no way makes that demon's cover useless, though it may bang it up.
                One demon seeing an angel use an Incept in no way makes that angel's cover useless. It doesn't even bang it up.
                3 rounds vs an Unchained is an awful long time to wait before bringing out the big guns, since on any round against a demon, he may paralyze you or rewrite the timeline so he gets away and you keep your damage while knowing nothing of him, or other such things. Any round of combat with a demon can be your last chance, whether to survive or even to be able to remember the demon's existence.
                If an angel is masquerading as an important politician or something I could see holding back on Incepts longer, but even then... its still just a random demon.


                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                THe cover doesn't need to degrade when the point of the cover is that it needs to hide the fact that the entity in question is an angel.

                Using an Incept defeats that purpose, and makes the cover useless.
                In no way is the cover rendered useless.

                You guys are being way too hard on someone who is making a contribution over what is purely a matter of subjective taste. It is entirely reasonable for an angel defending infrastructure to use an Incept the moment it is dealing with demons. The fact that it is an angel is largely out of the bag the moment one realizes a demon is involved, since they can see that its protecting infrastructure. At that point, the demon can tell its dealing with some sort of GM guardian entity.

                Comment


                • #23
                  A demon now knows without a doubt the beekeeper of the garden is an angel, and has gotten away from the encounter with that information. In fact, that they are not continually chased by the beekeeper, they can take a decent guess that bans or the priority of orders keeps them from leaving there, which hey, means that it's Infrastructure, one apparently important enough to have a dedicated Guardian angel on of not insubstantial clout(rank 3 angels mark the beginning of the real movers and shakers of the game, but a Rank 2 is a solid rook on the board no matter how you slice it), and where there's a guardian, there's valuable resources or a linchpin to cover, and it's probably in something that the beekeepers would regularly interact with, soooooooooooo (Look, I could keep going on here).

                  A demon definitively knows who is an angel in this scenario, and thus has invaluable information over the angel in this scenario. Angels denotes special resources and their implementation in Infrastructure is thus always indicative of the things of value in and of that Infrastructure.

                  This is a spy game. Revelations like that in a genre like this without rapidly fixing the compromise translates to "Game over"-either you need to accelerate plans to make things happen now (which is not the G-M's style), or you need to start preserving what's worth keeping and scrap the rest so you can reallocate the resources. Unless the G-M can make rapid use of the beekeeper in some other way(which, given the limitations, is unlikely), the reveal of that much of the hand in this instance is enough to not only compromise that angel, but probably a significant amount of the project. You do not want to be a known quantity in the game between the Unchained and the God-Machine.

                  And we can read more into it as it stands, but that becomes speculation on our part and has no real bearing on the actual text provided. Sure, maybe there's backup, sure, maybe it's a feint-but none of that is text.

                  As a thought experiment, this wasn't a bad one, but it doesn't hurt to say it needs some work to demonstrate it's point more effectively(and by the way, a lot of those are still solid ones).

                  But it can't be ignored-revelations are compromises, and angels are context-specific. This sort of turn out is bad for the God-Machine.


                  Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                  Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Are you supposed to roll Initiative after every Turn? I thought it was just the one time, D&D-style.

                    EDIT: I double-checked the 2E core rulebook, and the line "The Storyteller should write down each character’s Initiative and put them in order, including both player characters and Storyteller characters. The Initiative order determined here is the order in which the characters will act during each turn until something happens to change it, such as a character dropping a weapon (see below)." seems to match up with my recollection.
                    Last edited by BigDamnHero; 01-04-2019, 06:16 PM.


                    "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
                    Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
                    He/him pronouns, please

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      To put it simply, if the demon walks away from this fight knowing there's an angel there, they can go tell their Ring, and an agency or two, or just blast it all over town. The angels cover is blown, even if it's Cover is fine.

                      By the same token, if a demon does something demonic in front of an angel and drops third Covers drivers license as they flee, it doesn't matter what the Covers rating is. That angel now knows exactly who the cover is and where that cover lives. The difference being that the angel likely doesn't have a mission to tell anyone about it and so doesn't (unless they are a hunter and are supposed to hunt down a demon).


                      (he/him/his)


                      Backer #2010

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post
                        To put it simply, if the demon walks away from this fight knowing there's an angel there, they can go tell their Ring, and an agency or two, or just blast it all over town. The angels cover is blown, even if it's Cover is fine.

                        By the same token, if a demon does something demonic in front of an angel and drops third Covers drivers license as they flee, it doesn't matter what the Covers rating is. That angel now knows exactly who the cover is and where that cover lives. The difference being that the angel likely doesn't have a mission to tell anyone about it and so doesn't (unless they are a hunter and are supposed to hunt down a demon).
                        To speak to this more directly:

                        The reason investigating a Demon's Cover is so potentially troublesome is because what you get out of the investigation is not just a compromise check, but a leak. Not only does somebody know something about the demon occupying that Cover, but any time anybody tells a human about it, they have to roll another check.

                        This is espionage - secrets are currency, knowledge is power, and information wants to be free in flagrant disregard for any disaster that may result. You do not go loud on the enemy's terms if you can avoid it at all, and if you have the Apparatus on your side you can usually at least make a convincing argument to yourself that you can avoid it.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The various posts above capture my point. I'll also add: Demons use Cover to hide and protect themselves from the G-M first, and to achieve their goals second. Angels are the other way around - if the G-M assigns the angel to a Cover, It expects that the Cover is serving the goal required. The angel isn't really protecting itself, it's either protecting something else or gaining legitimate (hidden) access to something.

                          In this scenario, the OP tells us that the angel's purpose is to protect the honey. It has no idea what the other person's goals are, or (initially) that this is even a demon. The angel exists in a garden, presumably people sometimes visit. The scenario also establishes that the bees take 4 turns to respond within this garden, which leads us to believe that the hives (and honey) aren't actually that close by. At the beginning of the scenario, it's not reasonable to presume by default that the honey is threatened (yet). With this in mind, the angel's first objective is gathering information, not giving it away.

                          Turn 0 - some random person jumps out of the bushes to surprise the angel but it notices the person and isn't surprised. This isn't normal behaviour, the angel needs to understand why and how its garden is threatened.

                          Turn 1 - demon fires gun at angel. Angel still has no idea why and summons bees.

                          Turn 2 - In the scenario as presented, angel wins initiative and uses supernatural speed to close on the gunman. Here's where the ST starts playing a stupid angel. The angel's better option at this point is to run *away* from the crazed gunman into the trees, preferably in a direction away from the honey stores. That's what a beekeeper would do when suddenly shot at by a maniac, right? Plus, the bees are on their way. The angel has already screwed over its Cover for no gain.

                          Demon uses clearly supernatural power to inflict aggravated damage. Note that the description clearly indicates that the only reason the demon does so is because the angel was stupid and blew her (small 'c') cover. She's clearly not a beekeeper, despite the infrastructure the G-M has put in place to prop up her (capital 'c') Cover. Stupid angel is stupid. Let's assume angel didn't use supernatural power and demon didn't use obvious power in response. Both maintained some kind of Cover.

                          Turn 3 - What should happen is angel and demon now play cat-and-mouse through the garden, with the angel using its supernatural speed to stay out of the demon's field of view and confound the crazed gunman without clearly making supernatural displays. Angel also calls 911, shots fired, because that's what a beekeeper fleeing from a gunman would do.

                          Turn 4 - Maybe the demon is too good. He's getting too close. The angel could choose to dematerialise and let the assailant wonder where the beekeeper is hiding. Or it could be discovered and start pleading for her life - you know, like a *beekeeper* would do - while trying to work out what the crazed gunman actually wants.

                          Turn 5 - All this crashing through the garden has made the bees angry so they swarm and attack the gunman. They seem to leave the beekeeper alone, but that could be because they recognise that the beekeeper isn't a threat. Still nothing indicates supernatural compromise of the angel's Cover. The demon is now faced with what to do while being repeatedly stung with an increasing likelihood of police response. He attacked the *beekeeper* (note: not 'the angel') because "no witnesses", and it's getting more likely that witnesses are on their way to make things messy.

                          Turn 6 - Demon decides that his no witnesses approach is now doomed to a body count if he hangs around. Cursing, he runs from the park (not teleports, because that would be stupid and Cover-implicating) and vows to plan better and find a more suitable approach next time. Maybe at night when the beekeeper won't be around.

                          Turn 7 and beyond - The beekeeper assists the police however she can, as a concerned victim of crime. As she's not hurt, she refuses their offers of taking her to hospital for help. After they leave, the angel doesn't know why the attacker was in the garden but begins shoring up her defenses for if (when) he or someone else returns.

                          *That's* a game of espionage. Neither side really knows much more than they did, and both are now more suspicious. When demon comes back in the middle of the night and finds beekeeper still there, he'll have another data point. When angel discovers that someone else has returned at night and sprung some of her traps, she'll have another data point. At some point there will be a conflict (or a dramatic heist!) but it won't be balls-out supernatural conflict from a random encounter where both sides keep passing the idiot ball to each other.


                          Writer. Developer. WoD | CofD | The Trinity Continuum 19 books and counting...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The good rule of thumb for these games is you do not show your hand unless doing so ensures you will have won. Not even win, but fully, deterministically won.

                            From there, the goal is to get the other side to do that more times than they can afford before they earn that success state.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                            Currently Working On: Memento Mori(GtSE)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                              (Many interesting points on each turn listed)

                              *That's* a game of espionage. Neither side really knows much more than they did, and both are now more suspicious. When demon comes back in the middle of the night and finds beekeeper still there, he'll have another data point. When angel discovers that someone else has returned at night and sprung some of her traps, she'll have another data point. At some point there will be a conflict (or a dramatic heist!) but it won't be balls-out supernatural conflict from a random encounter where both sides keep passing the idiot ball to each other.
                              There have been a lot of useful comments correcting my implementation of the rules, for which I am grateful. I will try to correct my mistakes. Please point out any other mistakes that I have made in the mechanics.

                              There have also been several comments about what is or is not a stupid move by Angie or Damien. I wrote the scene to provide some concrete examples of the the game's mechanics, using a scenario I plan to run. Presented out of context, there are some narrative problems. Why is Damien there alone? That's stupid for a Demon wandering into enemy territory. Why would Angie act so aggressively? Why not play cat and mouse in the orchard?

                              I don't know if it is important to provide all of the backstory to the scenario in order to address these issues. Angie was specifically designed to be able to hunt the PC's in the orchard. A single PC should not be going in alone. The orchard is designed to be isolated, fenced in, and warded to contain its murderous crypto flora. The plants have been feeding on migrant workers and Angie is no stranger to murder. Her "prime directives" are to produce the honey and keep the nature of the plants secret. She doesn't worry about cover because she doesn't interact with people in any normal way. She never leaves the orchard. Writing up all of this detail seemed to be a distraction and I was daunted at the prospect of writing up a multi-PC battle with an angel.

                              I think that some posters have different takes on DtD, which is fine. The game supports soft/loud/smooth/rough styles of play. This scenario is played out at the loud/rough end of the map. Bunyip makes some excellent points that in a more soft/smooth game Angel and Damien might behave very differently. I agree, and perhaps the scenario could be re-written to demonstrate different styles of play. I would welcome anyone who wishes to do so (while still demonstrating mechanics!).

                              I started to write a point by point defense of why I wrote the scenario that way. (E.g. "Panicky teleporting when being beaten on by an angel makes more sense to me than running away, especially since Angie doesn't know who Damien is.") but it sounded dickishly defensive. I think that it might be useful to add a very few details (e.g. the orchard is remote and isolated so neither Angie nor Damien are worried about witnesses) and fix the mistakes I made in the mechanics. Do you think that it would be useful to have a postscript describing different styles of play (especially including Bunyip's comments) and how they would affect the choices of the PC and ST? Should that be incorporated into the play description?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                                Hellfire doesn't quite work that way. It is Reflexive, and enhances touched firearms to deal Aggravated damage. Also, Damien needs to roll for Compromise. He should have used it for the opening attack, combined with the 8-Again of Merciless Gunman.
                                I am sorry but I don't quite understand your point about Hellfire. I agree that it is reflexive, so Damien can activate it on the same turn that he fires the gun. Can you be more specific about what was wrong? Or was my writing unclear?

                                Your points about Merciless Gunmen are, of course, completely correct.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X