Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer (Demon the Descent)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
    Thank you for the comprehensive answers.

    I do have another question though; should Gadgets be considered for the sanctity of merits? While one doesn't pay experience for them directly, the willpower dot does cost one experience to regain. Therefore, couldn't they be used as a means of acquiring merits by way of trading, merits which would count under the sanctity of merits? Or is a gadget exempt due to the willpower dot's cost not falling under paying an experience dot for the gadget itself, thus meaning if the gadget is stolen and or destroyed by an NPC the experience dot is effectively lost?
    Well, Gadgets do offer other advantages over possessing the Embeds/Exploits directly - they can be given to others, do things the base power can't (Near Field effects), and most important for Exploited Gadgets, they don't cause Compromise (inherently).

    For temporary loss (like loaning it out), I wouldn't do anything. But if they are sinking XP into Gadgets and loose them, You could "refund" them 1XP.
    Last edited by Vent0; 10-06-2017, 08:53 AM.


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

    Comment


    • Another gadgets question here; if a Demon makes a gadget that has an effect that relies on Primum, be it a modifier for the effect proper or through precision engineering, what happens if another supernatural uses it? A stigmatic probably wouldn't gain much benefit, even if they are under the effect of Soul Brand, but what about a Changeling and her Wyrd score, or Sin Eater's Psyche? Would those stand in for Primum in those cases?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
        Another gadgets question here; if a Demon makes a gadget that has an effect that relies on Primum, be it a modifier for the effect proper or through precision engineering, what happens if another supernatural uses it? A stigmatic probably wouldn't gain much benefit, even if they are under the effect of Soul Brand, but what about a Changeling and her Wyrd score, or Sin Eater's Psyche? Would those stand in for Primum in those cases?
        Well, you could lock in the Primum-based effect as a constant for one of the Gadget's limitations.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

          Well, you could lock in the Primum-based effect as a constant for one of the Gadget's limitations.
          That is true, but I'm pondering if, say, a Changeling gets a gadget that is precision engineered to work on additional targets up to the user's Primum. Would that be up to her Wyrd, then, or just the single target the gadget normally targets since Changelings don't have Primum?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

            That is true, but I'm pondering if, say, a Changeling gets a gadget that is precision engineered to work on additional targets up to the user's Primum. Would that be up to her Wyrd, then, or just the single target the gadget normally targets since Changelings don't have Primum?
            Or if made by a Demon with 4 Primum, it work on 4 targets whether the Demon uses it, or a Changeling, or a human.


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

            Comment


            • Seems like something that depends on the exact cosmology of your version of the setting, and is therefore ultimately a question for your ST.

              My default position would be that while they're mechanically similar, the various supernatural traits represent very different things. Wyrd is not Primum is not Gnosis, and under normal circumstances a Blood Potency 5 vampire doesn't "count as" having Primum 5 any more than a mortal does. However, if I wanted to entwine the various mythologies, I would make exceptions. For example, it says something interesting about the nature of the universe if a werewolf's Primal Urge can't substitute for Primum - but a promethean's Azoth can.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Terrorforge View Post
                Seems like something that depends on the exact cosmology of your version of the setting, and is therefore ultimately a question for your ST.

                My default position would be that while they're mechanically similar, the various supernatural traits represent very different things. Wyrd is not Primum is not Gnosis, and under normal circumstances a Blood Potency 5 vampire doesn't "count as" having Primum 5 any more than a mortal does. However, if I wanted to entwine the various mythologies, I would make exceptions. For example, it says something interesting about the nature of the universe if a werewolf's Primal Urge can't substitute for Primum - but a promethean's Azoth can.
                Hmmm, I like that idea; it may even be appropriate for certain gadgets, based on how or what they function on, to react to different supernaturals in terms of allowing substitutions for Primum. The cellphone that steals the location of anyone calling it wouldn't allow a Vampire to use its Primum based effects, but if that gadget were to purify blood, well, that could be a different matter...

                Comment


                • Hi there,

                  So, page 43 says that many demons 'let their hair down' and spend some private time in demon form every day. It also brings up neutral locations where demons gather to hang out in demon form. This is a really cool idea, but as far as I can tell, the actual rules really don't support this - switching to demonic form always results in a compromise roll, regardless of witnesses, and there's no way to mitigate that for game-balance reasons. I can't imagine demons damaging their covers just to stretch and shoot the breeze. Did I miss something?

                  Another, related question: Does this imply that you must roll compromise every single time your cover does something 'out of character', even if there are no witnesses or you are not recognized? That would seriously hamstring most espionage missions, because doing any sort of spy stuff is out-of-character for nearly every cover. Surely that isn't the intent?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                    Hi there,
                    Welcome!

                    Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                    So, page 43 says that many demons 'let their hair down' and spend some private time in demon form every day. It also brings up neutral locations where demons gather to hang out in demon form. This is a really cool idea, but as far as I can tell, the actual rules really don't support this - switching to demonic form always results in a compromise roll, regardless of witnesses, and there's no way to mitigate that for game-balance reasons. I can't imagine demons damaging their covers just to stretch and shoot the breeze. Did I miss something?
                    Well, there are ways to create "dead zones" that block the G-M's senses. I think there is a bar in Seattle that has a kind of cryptoflora that does so. Certain kinds of Suborned Infrastructure might as well, or Near-Field (or Lambda) Gadgets with Interference. The ST could also just rule that "no witnesses, no compromise", if there isn't any realistic risk. Boltholes are also safe spaces, I think.

                    Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                    Another, related question: Does this imply that you must roll compromise every single time your cover does something 'out of character', even if there are no witnesses or you are not recognized? That would seriously hamstring most espionage missions, because doing any sort of spy stuff is out-of-character for nearly every cover. Surely that isn't the intent?
                    I think it is every time you are "spotted" doing something out of character, regardless of whether the observers know it is out of character. I think of it link the G-M has installed spyware in every mortal and has it all hooked up to pattern recognition and escalation algorithms. Joe the Security Guard might not know that this strange woman is Sally the Waitress (actually a Demon) and thus shouldn't be breaking into a chemical plant or be an expert marksman, but the Machine's security apparatus notes it and flags it as irregular. (Maybe - that's what the Compromise Check is for)


                    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                      Hi there,

                      Another, related question: Does this imply that you must roll compromise every single time your cover does something 'out of character', even if there are no witnesses or you are not recognized? That would seriously hamstring most espionage missions, because doing any sort of spy stuff is out-of-character for nearly every cover. Surely that isn't the intent?
                      Yes, it doesn't actually matter whether there are witnesses to see you violating your Cover (well, witnesses impose a penalty to the compromise roll). You can be completely alone in a windowless room and still risk compromise.

                      But pay attention to the emphasis in the wording. Compromise risks result from behavior that is grossly out of character for your Cover. If you imagine a hypothetical invisible observer watching you perform a given action, the invisible observer isn't somebody who's been tracking your every move and knows just what your Cover personality would and wouldn't do in every situation. It's more like the invisible observer is familiar with you in passing, or in the broad strokes, knows roughly what kind of person you are, and is not particularly on guard or looking for contradictions. If something you do would still clearly strike this sloppy hypothetical observer as definitely out of place, that's when you roll for compromise. Your Cover frays, whether there are witnesses or not, when your actions contradict the tentpole characteristics that define who that Cover is, because those known values and relationships are what gird your Cover and make it strong.

                      A kind grade school teacher sneaking into the back room is behaving oddly, but not contradicting his very identity. But drawing a semiautomatic and spray-n-prayin' a room full of strangers isn't just an unexpected puzzle piece, it's one that outright doesn't fit.
                      Last edited by Stupid Loserman; 12-08-2017, 12:11 AM.

                      Comment


                      • The reason why you still risk violating your cover without witnesses is because the God-Machine doesn't just use word of mouth/mindreading/etc. to gather information. It's a multidimensional system which might be sensing the emotional wavelengths and suddenly note a dip when you go into demon form because you no longer have hormones hyping you up. Or might detect how probability just changed or some change in the region's quantum fields because of a quantum entity just made a massive shift in reality. Or it could do any number of different mystical methods to divine a flow of aether being emitted from their primium.


                        Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

                        Rakshasa: the Kingdom (Featuring the Extinction Chronicle) [WIP]

                        Comment


                        • Thank you for your responses.

                          What are Near-Field gadgets and Interference? I can't find them in the book. Are they in a supplement?

                          Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                          If you imagine a hypothetical invisible observer watching you perform a given action, the invisible observer isn't somebody who's been tracking your every move and knows just what your Cover personality would and wouldn't do in every situation. It's more like the invisible observer is familiar with you in passing, or in the broad strokes, knows roughly what kind of person you are, and is not particularly on guard or looking for contradictions.
                          I understand and accept this in theory, but I have trouble coming to terms with the idea that even the sloppiest observer would think that...
                          ... breaking and entering of strangers' property
                          ... clandestine meetings with sketchy strangers
                          ... long term stalking of total strangers
                          ... theft of non-profitable objects
                          ... sabotage of unseen metaphysical patterns
                          ... interrogations about clandestine operations of any sort
                          ... every single conversation about the God Machine and Angels

                          ... aren't all gross violations of the following covers: corporate drone, school teacher, lawyer, doctor, college student, manager, waiter, plumber, construction worker, factory worker, airline pilot, etc.

                          Compromise rolls are inconvenient even on a success, so by the book a demon trying to do double-life secret agent stuff is constantly being penalized for doing what the game is actually about. Heck, even approaching mortals to make the all important pacts leaves the demon shaken or glitchy every single time.

                          This leads to some possibly unfortunate choices I'd have to make as a GM:
                          1) conclude that some covers are just more useful than others: criminal, vagrant, actual spy, lunatic, detective, occultist, satanic priest, etc.
                          2) Interpret the guidelines so forgivingly that compromise checks start to feel arbitrary.
                          3) Possibly take Vent0's suggestion and ignore the constant panopticon effect altogether, thereby drastically house-ruling the game and possibly leading to unforeseen game balance consequences down the line.
                          Last edited by MatterofTact; 12-08-2017, 07:53 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                            Thank you for your responses.

                            What are Near-Field gadgets and Interference? I can't find them in the book. Are they in a supplement?
                            Near-Field Gadgets are discussed in Flowers of Hell. Basically they are one-off effects from Embeds and Exploits. Their powers aren't covered in the source Embed/Exploit, but they are conceptually close enough. (Such as a switch/key/whatever being unnoticeable when surrounded by similar objects - Lost In The Crowd, but changed to apply to objects instead of people)

                            Interference is in the Mundane Embeds section, though it helps throw Angels off your scent after a failed Compromise Roll. Flowers of Hell has Context Matters, where mortals participants can actually help your Compromise roll. I also made Blackout, which eliminates the risk mortal observers pose for a time.

                            Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                            I understand and accept this in theory, but I have trouble coming to terms with the idea that even the sloppiest observer would think that...
                            ... breaking and entering of strangers' property
                            ... clandestine meetings with sketchy strangers
                            ... long term stalking of total strangers
                            ... theft of non-profitable objects
                            ... sabotage of unseen metaphysical patterns
                            ... interrogations about clandestine operations of any sort
                            ... every single conversation about the God Machine and Angels

                            ... aren't all gross violations of the following covers: corporate drone, school teacher, lawyer, doctor, college student, manager, waiter, plumber, construction worker, factory worker, airline pilot, etc.

                            Compromise rolls are inconvenient even on a success, so by the book a demon trying to do double-life secret agent stuff is constantly being penalized for doing what the game is actually about. Heck, even approaching mortals to make the all important pacts leaves the demon shaken or glitchy every single time.

                            This leads to some possibly unfortunate choices I'd have to make as a GM:
                            1) conclude that some covers are just more useful than others: criminal, vagrant, actual spy, lunatic, detective, occultist, satanic priest, etc.
                            2) Interpret the guidelines so forgivingly that compromise checks start to feel arbitrary.
                            3) Possibly take Vent0's suggestion and ignore the constant panopticon effect altogether, thereby drastically house-ruling the game and possibly leading to unforeseen game balance consequences down the line.
                            Well, B&E, secret meeting, stalking, and petty theft aren't outside the range of human behaviors. Eliminate the "strangers" part, and all become understandable - your Ring might simply need to manufacture probable cause for their Covers' actions before-hand.

                            Remember that Demons often speak in codes anyways. What is unusual about acquaintances chatting about former employers, or the weather?


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                              Near-Field Gadgets are discussed in Flowers of Hell. Basically they are one-off effects from Embeds and Exploits. Their powers aren't covered in the source Embed/Exploit, but they are conceptually close enough. (Such as a switch/key/whatever being unnoticeable when surrounded by similar objects - Lost In The Crowd, but changed to apply to objects instead of people)

                              Interference is in the Mundane Embeds section, though it helps throw Angels off your scent after a failed Compromise Roll. Flowers of Hell has Context Matters, where mortals participants can actually help your Compromise roll. I also made Blackout, which eliminates the risk mortal observers pose for a time.
                              Thank you.

                              Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                              Well, B&E, secret meeting, stalking, and petty theft aren't outside the range of human behaviors. Eliminate the "strangers" part, and all become understandable - your Ring might simply need to manufacture probable cause for their Covers' actions before-hand.


                              Remember that Demons often speak in codes anyways. What is unusual about acquaintances chatting about former employers, or the weather?
                              While both of these suggestions are cool in a cinematic sense, I suspect that at the table they would be too cumbersome to be kept up for long.

                              Besides, the very act of conspiring with a cell to manufacture probable cause is in itself grossly out of character.

                              So, I'm getting the feeling from the responses that many people don't really want to run compromise rules as strictly as the book would indicate and that's fine, no one would want me to as a GM either. I'm tempted to house-rule the "out of character" bit so it specifically must be witnessed, that way player characters are motivated to use disguises, masks, stealth, tradecraft, etc.

                              I must also conclude that page 43 is leftover from an earlier draft when demonic form wasn't an auto-compromise. That's a shame, but I guess there must have been a game balance or thematic reason for it. I suppose the infinite aether could be abused, or demons might be tempted to skip living among humans and just create a hell-on-earth underground.


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MatterofTact View Post
                                So, I'm getting the feeling from the responses that many people don't really want to run compromise rules as strictly as the book would indicate
                                The book indicates the "grossly out of character" category is comparable to human breaking points and gives suddenly displaying doctorate-level knowledge of physics and casually torturing someone as examples. Further, the Mundane Embed that specifically interacts with that class of compromise refers to them as "actions antithetical to that Cover," which combines with the breaking point comparison to suggest they're based on a Cover being an identity with broadly known principles that could be brought into doubt by their violation. There's a reason the bonus Skill Specialty the Unchained template gives you is specifically something that could risk compromise, to say nothing of how much less risky partial transformation is. It's not a death-sentence on its own, but it adds up.

                                I must also conclude that page 43 is leftover from an earlier draft when demonic form wasn't an auto-compromise.
                                Or that, y'know, a transient glitch is a thing that demons are comfortable dealing with for a couple of hours or a couple of days as a thing that serves as an expression of their individual nature in a context where they're attempting to be comfortable.


                                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X