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Ask a simple question, get a simple answer (Demon the Descent)

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  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    There is no prewritten Numen that accomplishes the thing that a demonic form power establishes there are angels explicitly built with among the explicit diversity of powers angels can be built to have as Numina that might trigger the demonic ability to pass for human that specifically can be made to stop working against angels, no. This is not the same thing as there being no room for such a Numen to exist in the setting despite its being directly implied.

    Sense the Angelic works on the same principles that Plugged In's recognition alludes to and those aren't given mechanical emphasis, either. This is literally as simple as "there's an angel with a Numen that works like the Aura Sight form power" or "there's an angel that counts how many humans pass through a given intersection." The mechanics of making a Numen aren't complicated enough to put space into every conceivable thing an angel could have as a discrete ability, because that is a list that goes on basically forever.

    So it sounds like unless I give a specific Angel the power to try and detect a Demon, a Demon can generally be face to face with an Angel and not really have to worry too much about being detected as such unless they do something to draw attention?

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    • Originally posted by Therian View Post
      So it sounds like unless I give a specific Angel the power to try and detect a Demon, a Demon can generally be face to face with an Angel and not really have to worry too much about being detected as such unless they do something to draw attention?
      Bearing in mind that spoofing doesn't stop people from thinking you're acting suspicious any more than Liar's Tongue compels them to believe you, yes.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • Originally posted by Therian View Post

        So it sounds like unless I give a specific Angel the power to try and detect a Demon, a Demon can generally be face to face with an Angel and not really have to worry too much about being detected as such unless they do something to draw attention?
        Just remember that as a Demon in Cover, you are nice and squishy, while even a Rank 2 angel can easily have Power+FInesse of 10 dice for an attack, can summon its buddies who might be any one of the other people nearby, and can run a background check on you with all the computer resources the GodMachine can access. If she is even slightly suspicious of you, she might have you followed invisibly, from Twilight. Or even just have a few human cultists routinely check you out, picking away at your Cover.

        Now as a Demon, you may have some fancy tricks you can pull. Most of them will set off alarms for the angel. And your goal isn't to defeat the angel, because the inevitable result of that is more angels showing up.

        Of course, if she's not suspicious of you, she might view you as a useful human to exploit for some suicide mission she's planning.

        It's a police state and angels are the super-powered gestapo/secret police that can have you dragged away and your mind cored and reprogrammed to betray everyone you love.

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        • Probably someone already asked, but if a demon creates a gadget with a bonus based on the embed user primium, what kind of bonus receive another user?
          The creator primium?
          His supernatural tolerance, if any?

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          • Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
            Probably someone already asked, but if a demon creates a gadget with a bonus based on the embed user primium, what kind of bonus receive another user?
            The creator primium?
            His supernatural tolerance, if any?
            I'd typically fix the bonus at Gadget creation. So, creator's Primum at that point in time.


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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            • Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
              Probably someone already asked, but if a demon creates a gadget with a bonus based on the embed user primium, what kind of bonus receive another user?
              The creator primium?
              His supernatural tolerance, if any?
              I trend towards the current users Primum, like it's an Exploit. If the user has another supernatural tolerance, it depends on the gadget and the user.

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              • The problem is that a hunan would have no benedit from the item use if the bonus is supernatural tolerance based.
                So i would give a flat +1 or as Vent0 said

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                • See, Gadgets are supposed to be more rigid, and by basing it on the user's stats, there is incentive for stronger Demons to pressure weaker ones into creating Gadgets they can use with more potency. The inverse is that Gadgets crafted by powerful Demons have a lot of value.


                  Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                  Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                  Comment


                  • Do Demons have 100% accuracy to detecting infrastructure, Angels, and Stigmatics?

                    For example:
                    Players walk into a “Bad Part of Town” Infrastructure, where Mortals are transformed into gang members defending their turf.

                    Players are at their Free Agency meeting when a new demon arrives they are actually an Angel trying to compromise the Agency.

                    A Demon see a bunch of people evangelizing passerby’s on the street. The evangelists are actually Stigmatic cultists.

                    In these 3 scenarios would the demon see the gears of the God-Machine. Would they need to roll to notice?

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                    • Originally posted by DontEatRawHagis View Post
                      Do Demons have 100% accuracy to detecting infrastructure, Angels, and Stigmatics?

                      For example:
                      Players walk into a “Bad Part of Town” Infrastructure, where Mortals are transformed into gang members defending their turf.

                      Players are at their Free Agency meeting when a new demon arrives they are actually an Angel trying to compromise the Agency.

                      A Demon see a bunch of people evangelizing passerby’s on the street. The evangelists are actually Stigmatic cultists.

                      In these 3 scenarios would the demon see the gears of the God-Machine. Would they need to roll to notice?
                      Demons have two ways of identifying G-M stuff (other than through mundane investigations and deductions), namely automatically seeing through any supernatural concealment on Infrastructure (much like Stigmatics and people with the Unseen Sense (God-Machine) Merit), and using Aetheric Resonance by spending an Aether to sense any Essence/Aether sources or expenditures within a certain radius.
                      • Your first example is too vague to say one way or another.
                      • The angel who infiltrates demons is hidden by its Cover that they demons can't see through. It can be sensed through Aetheric Resonance if it uses any Essence, but a demon using Aether would also ping so it wouldn't help except by alerting the demon using Aetheric Resonance that a supernatural power was activated/used.
                      • Stigmatics aren't hidden by supernatural concealment and just shows up like humans. Stigmatics (and Cryptids) also don't trigger Aetheric Resonance so that doesn't help. Only way to recognising that they're Stigmatics or cultists is through deduction, figuring out that what they're doing isn't normal or possible for regular humans.
                      In short, most Infrastructure is hidden through mundane means as well as through supernatural concealment. Demons only automatically pierce the latter, and need to investigate in order to see through the former. For example, a piece of Infrastructure subtly altering the mood of all tenants in a building is hidden down in the basement. Just looking at the building or at the affected tenants won't reveal the Infrastructure. In order to find it, the demon needs to figure out that tenants on lower floors are more affected and the source is thus most likely further down, or through use of Aetheric Resonance if their Primum is high enough to find the Infrastructure all the way down in the basement.
                      Last edited by Tessie; 11-17-2019, 11:03 AM.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • Originally posted by DontEatRawHagis View Post
                        Do Demons have 100% accuracy to detecting infrastructure, Angels, and Stigmatics?
                        Each infrastructural project of the God-Machine has some kind of tell, something about it that outwardly manifests the occult correspondences it is seeking to exploit to produce output. It's not universally manifest through every single moving part of the project: if there's a human workforce at a factory the Machine uses to produce an output, the human laborers aren't necessarily all sporting the same occult tattoo. But they might. Or instead, there might be beating hearts ensconced within the circuit breakers throughout the building. Or instead, the building speakers might play foreign pop music in a language nobody at the factory speaks. There is something about a major part of the project that says, "there is something wrong here." There has to be, because it's part of the extremely complicated setup the God-Machine needs to line up to produce the output.

                        These are the gears demons and stigmatics can see that others can't, these tells. Concealment projects have been set up to prevent the ordinary person from being able to notice what's wrong. (If they're forced into contact with it, like an electrician sent to fix the circuit breakers who comes face-to-face with the beating heart, that's the beginning of a bluebook mortals God-Machine Chronicle.) Demons see these things and see occult correspondences lining up. They think, "I don't know what the Machine is doing here, but I know it's doing something."

                        Players see these things and think, "I don't know what the Storyteller has set up here, but there is a plot hook established here."

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                        • Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                          The problem is that a hunan would have no benedit from the item use if the bonus is supernatural tolerance based.
                          So i would give a flat +1 or as Vent0 said
                          While that is true, gadgets aren't meant for humans to use much of the time, and if the gadget is precision engineered (which you need for that benefit most of the time) then a Demon is unlikely to let it out of their sight for long. It depends on the context of the game and the players within.

                          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                          See, Gadgets are supposed to be more rigid, and by basing it on the user's stats, there is incentive for stronger Demons to pressure weaker ones into creating Gadgets they can use with more potency. The inverse is that Gadgets crafted by powerful Demons have a lot of value.
                          While that works in a narrative sense, it should be remembered that precision engineering is not an insignificant undertaking, and having a player manage it early with a static bonus only to grow ib Primum and not have the equivalent bonus later can be frustrating. As noted above, it depends on context and the players within the game.

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                          • "Karen thinks the image is too precise. They agree that Trick of the Light doesn’t allow for such detailed hallucinations, perhaps merely provoking victims to see threatening movement in their peripheral vision that can’t be pinned down. Brad agrees to this and asks if the visions can impair both Perception and Initiative (penalty to both equal to Brad’s character’s Primum rating, which is 3 — note that once the gadget is created, this number won’t increase even if the demon’s Primum does)."

                            Part of the example for creating gadgets.

                            Personally I'd try to avoid any dice bonuses/penalties when designing gadgets. They generally (but not always, the example is a good exception) relegate the gadget into being just a tool for your action rather than being a cool invention that does its own thing and opens up new possibilities when used.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                              "Karen thinks the image is too precise. They agree that Trick of the Light doesn’t allow for such detailed hallucinations, perhaps merely provoking victims to see threatening movement in their peripheral vision that can’t be pinned down. Brad agrees to this and asks if the visions can impair both Perception and Initiative (penalty to both equal to Brad’s character’s Primum rating, which is 3 — note that once the gadget is created, this number won’t increase even if the demon’s Primum does)."

                              Part of the example for creating gadgets.

                              Personally I'd try to avoid any dice bonuses/penalties when designing gadgets. They generally (but not always, the example is a good exception) relegate the gadget into being just a tool for your action rather than being a cool invention that does its own thing and opens up new possibilities when used.
                              Thanks for the example and for the advice 🙂

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                              • Off-topic, but!

                                ~ ~ ~ Approaching 666 Responses ~ ~ ~

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