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Can Angels use exploits ?

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  • Can Angels use exploits ?

    I wanted to know can angels use exploits ?

    I saw a few angel NPC's with embeds and I was wondering if they could use exploits.

  • #2
    No.It's even stated in the books themselves. Exploits are basically creative use of embeds. Angels, like True Fae, have no creativity of their own.

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    • #3
      According to page 158,
      While learning to use an Embed is a matter of re-acquiring knowledge that the demon had as an angel, learning to use an Exploit is more a matter of application. Angels therefore do not use Exploits — even their more grandiose powers are perfectly in line with their missions and therefore the parameters laid down by the God-Machine. An angel that decides to emulate a demon, pushing energy through the world’s mystical framework just to see what will happen, is probably on the verge of Falling.


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      • #4
        Incepts (from the ST Guide) are basically an Angel's Exploit equivalent.

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        • #5
          Well, I would assume that they could use specific exploits that the G-M pre-loads into them, but figuring them out themselves is a Fall-worthy no-no.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by malonkey1 View Post
            Well, I would assume that they could use specific exploits that the G-M pre-loads into them, but figuring them out themselves is a Fall-worthy no-no.

            At that point, they aren't really Exploits though. They may use the mechanical representation of an exploit to cover the effect but it is really a numina, incept, manifestation or just part of their ephemeral make up. The same way Demonic Form abilities are.


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            • #7
              I don't have my book within reach but am I correct in believing that Angels get spirit numina? If so, that would offset their not being able to use Exploits.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                I don't have my book within reach but am I correct in believing that Angels get spirit numina? If so, that would offset their not being able to use Exploits.
                They get Numina, some of which they share with Spirits (and some which are restricted to only Angels, I think).


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                • #9
                  Can angels use Exploits? No.

                  Can they use Numina that resemble Exploits and use similar mechanics? Absolutely.

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                  • #10
                    To some it up, angels can't use something called exploits, but you can totally give them the same ability, translated to run on essence and not cause compromise. but they they can't use the potato called exploits, it must be the tomato called numina.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post
                      To some it up, angels can't use something called exploits, but you can totally give them the same ability, translated to run on essence and not cause compromise. but they they can't use the potato called exploits, it must be the tomato called numina.

                      To put it a little more thematically. Exploits are demons pushing the system that is the world to do things it isn't meant to do by exploiting flaws in the system. Almost everything an Angel does is part of the system as it is meant to work, because that's why an Angel knows how to do it. If an Angel does something not intended by the system then they are edging closer to Falling.

                      As a further thematic point, if you give Angels an ability that is mechanically the same as an Exploit, you run the risk of de-escalating the themetic punch of an Exploit. It may dillute the idea that the Demon is breaking the system if an Angel can do the same thing within the system. Incepts include the idea that they are a special access thing that must be granted in rare cases at least partially to mitigate this (my opinion, I did not write the incepts).


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                      • #12
                        Standard caveat - do what you want in your own game.

                        As written, no, angels can't use Exploits. Sure, some Exploits may appear more powerful than an angelic equivalent in a very limited way, but that's because its effect is so limited.

                        Exploits are what demons have managed to hack together through whatever reality access they can make. Angels get the codes and the God-Machine's blessing.

                        If there's a specific Exploit effect you're wanting an angel to be able to achieve, I'm sure it can be replicated through numina, influences, and Incepts. (And the combinations of these will give more flexibility to the angel, allowing it to do things other than what the single Exploit allows.)

                        But agreeing with ElvesofZion, Exploits should (generally) be better in their area of expertise. They can do things angels generally can't do, because they're hacks. They follow unexpected reality paths, and they go against routines the GM is comfortable with. Angels have the codes, but they have to follow the rules. Demons don't have that limitation.


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                        • #13
                          Even the terminology would seem to indicate only demons can use them. According to wikipedia "An exploit (from the English verb to exploit, meaning "using something to one’s own advantage") is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or a sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized)."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nothri View Post
                            Even the terminology would seem to indicate only demons can use them. According to wikipedia "An exploit (from the English verb to exploit, meaning "using something to one’s own advantage") is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or a sequence of commands that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized)."

                            one person's bug, is another's feature (not universally true)... and as our resident pen tester, and security expert... nothing prevents a "legitimate" user from using an exploit, outside of themselves.
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                            • #15
                              Embeds and Exploits are just remembering things that demons used to be able to do as an angel, and tryign to reverse engineer how they used to do it using back doors instead of system authority.

                              To use computer terminology, demons are hacking the system while angels are using Admin privileges to do whatever they need or want to. The end result is that, while both the demons and angels have different methods of achieving their goals, in the end its still the same trick they're pulling off. There's nothing that a demon can do that an angel can't do as well - they're both drawing from the same source of information (the God Machine).

                              Actually, no, I lied - Interlocks are supposed to be things that the G-M can't do, but that's the extent. Everything else, including all Embeds and Exploits, is just the demons trying to replicate already existing angel abilities. So, if there's an Embed or Exploit, you can bet an angel can do it (assuming the G-M included such an ability in the angel's design).

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