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Can Angels use exploits ?

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  • #16
    It occurs to me, think of this in security terms, that perhaps most angels would not have access to access to "exploits" by virtue that they do not need that level of access, it's simply not within their job description. That doesn't mean an angel couldn't, the god machine could provision them with said ability for some reason (e.g. elimination infrastructure might need to be able to delete things that most angels can't). Perhaps worth thinking of it that way... dunno.


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    • #17
      The reason angels can't use Exploits is that they're not entirely free-willed beings like humans. They have admin privileges, they use admin tools and pathways. Demons are hackers, they hack together working solutions. As said above, nothing stops an admin from using hacker tools - if they're human. If an angel decides to try and use an Exploit, it's exercising an element of free will which it absolutely is not designed to have. You know what happens? The Exploit probably works. Then the angel realizes that everything else has gone quiet. It no longer hears the constant data streams of the God-Machine. It no longer has admin access. It is now a demon, and that first Exploit had better have been worth it.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post


        one person's bug, is another's feature (not universally true)... and as our resident pen tester, and security expert... nothing prevents a "legitimate" user from using an exploit, outside of themselves.

        Or to be said more simply, well behaved individuals will not test your door to see if it's locked, they knock. Nothing prevents said individual from breaking a window and getting in that way.
        Uhhhhhh.....your metaphor kind of break down when you consider that we're talking about subordinate programs who's understanding of what is legit vs not is handed down to them as immutable laws and instructions by their creator AI. I mean, with the possible exception of Exiles the only way for an Angel to possess the Agency and freewill to do what you are talking about is to Fall and become a Demon. Otherwise if the God-Machine has said that the system is not to be used in X way then the Angel will not use it in X way BY THE VERY NATURE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. The very ability to do otherwise implicitly means that the entity is no longer an Angel as such because it violates the will of the God-Machine.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by nothri View Post

          Uhhhhhh.....your metaphor kind of break down when you consider that we're talking about subordinate programs who's understanding of what is legit vs not is handed down to them as immutable laws and instructions by their creator AI. I mean, with the possible exception of Exiles the only way for an Angel to possess the Agency and freewill to do what you are talking about is to Fall and become a Demon. Otherwise if the God-Machine has said that the system is not to be used in X way then the Angel will not use it in X way BY THE VERY NATURE OF THEIR EXISTENCE. The very ability to do otherwise implicitly means that the entity is no longer an Angel as such because it violates the will of the God-Machine.
          unless as stated the purpose of the program is to break the rules... Metasploit is a program specifically designed for breaking into things. My point was an Angel can be designed to essentially use exploits to do its job, it's purpose might be to bypass the normal system.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post
            unless as stated the purpose of the program is to break the rules... Metasploit is a program specifically designed for breaking into things. My point was an Angel can be designed to essentially use exploits to do its job, it's purpose might be to bypass the normal system.
            At which point, the angel still falls; this wouldn't be the first time the God-Machine gave contradictory information to provoke an angel to become a demon, and many are the theories that demons still hold meaning and purpose in the God-Machine's plans. Developing new abilities and techniques is well established as a potential reason for a G-M sanctioned demon-release-and-catch program.

            Angels simply aren't designed to operate the way you're indicating. They outright lack the self-awareness and lateral thinking capabilities that would make use of such methods. Developing such way of thinking leads directly towards the Fall. Or perhaps Exile-hood. But definietly not staying an angel. If God's plan forces an angel to become a demon for the sake of its Mission, so be it.

            Look at what Bunyip said above. Nothing stops a programmer from using hacker tools - if they're human. Angels are not human. Trying to treat them as humans is where the computer programmer analogy breaks apart.
            Last edited by MCN; 10-04-2016, 07:40 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MCN View Post
              At which point, the angel still falls; this wouldn't be the first time the God-Machine gave contradictory information to provoke an angel to become a demon, and many are the theories that demons still hold meaning and purpose in the God-Machine's plans. Developing new abilities and techniques is well established as a potential reason for a G-M sanctioned demon-release-and-catch program.

              Angels simply aren't designed to operate the way you're indicating. They outright lack the self-awareness and lateral thinking capabilities that would make use of such methods. Developing such way of thinking leads directly towards the Fall. Or perhaps Exile-hood. But definietly not staying an angel. If God's plan forces an angel to become a demon for the sake of its Mission, so be it.

              Look at what Bunyip said above. Nothing stops a programmer from using hacker tools - if they're human. Angels are not human. Trying to treat them as humans is where the computer programmer analogy breaks apart.

              you're implying creative thinking, using something like metasploit, or sudo rm (having access to remove things other angels can't), isn't creative at all, they're tools designed with a purpose. Creative thinking would be finding an exploit without using the framework. If the mission is to destroy infrastructure that no other angel can...


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              • #22
                Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post


                you're implying creative thinking, using something like metasploit, or sudo rm (having access to remove things other angels can't), isn't creative at all, they're tools designed with a purpose. Creative thinking would be finding an exploit without using the framework. If the mission is to destroy infrastructure that no other angel can...
                The God-Machine would likely use mortal agents, duped supernaturals, or corralled Cryptids. Angels are expensive, and Exploits are dangerous. If the Angel needs to do something, they'll get a Numina for it.

                No sense starting a trash fire just to water your plants using the building's sprinkler system, when you can just give them a bucket.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post
                  you're implying creative thinking, using something like metasploit, or sudo rm (having access to remove things other angels can't), isn't creative at all, they're tools designed with a purpose. Creative thinking would be finding an exploit without using the framework. If the mission is to destroy infrastructure that no other angel can...
                  I'm "implying" what's written directly in the book. Angels don't think in a way that's conductive to use of Embeds, and, by extension, Exploits. That's not how they're built. The GM uses other tool-shaped beings to study that particular effect (ie demons). Much more cost efficent that way as well.

                  Furthermore, destroying Infrastructure has nothing to do with being able to use backdoors in the System to invoke magical abilities. Kind of drifting from the point of the comparison here.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by xenoterracide View Post


                    you're implying creative thinking, using something like metasploit, or sudo rm (having access to remove things other angels can't), isn't creative at all, they're tools designed with a purpose. Creative thinking would be finding an exploit without using the framework. If the mission is to destroy infrastructure that no other angel can...

                    But at that point they aren't Exploits, even if they are exploits. You may be taking things too literally (I'm a programmer too, I get it). Unlike an exploit, an Exploit requires lateral thinking to use. It is explicitly pushing beyond the system. It is hardware mods and overclocking, not just using the code as written, that's what Embeds are. Exploits requiring being outside the system, Angels aren't separate programs to the God Machine, they're sub routines.


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