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How much work to turned the Unchained into real daemons?

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  • How much work to turned the Unchained into real daemons?

    I've recently been hit with an idea of completely changing the fluff of Demon: the Descent, by turning them into Hell demons of fire and brimstone. I also, don't want the crunch to change at all because I like 2e and don't want to screw it up. So, what crunch would I have to change to turn robo demons into hell spawn?

  • #2
    First off: Have you read Demon the Fallen and/or the Demon Translation guide? They're probably a good start.

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    • #3
      The Unchained /are/ real demons, just of a more Gnostic bent.


      Just call me Lex.

      Female pronouns for me, please.

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      • #4
        Well, what ways do you feel they don't work like that right now? Do you want them all to share a singular, Dante's Inferno-style Hell together as a base of operations? Is it just that their demonic forms are typically described as being mechanical?

        Because right now, it's a game about Fallen Angels rebelling against their Creator, so all you really need to do is paint their words purple and instead of, say, Embeds call them "Tricks" (as in, the Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled...) or instead of Exploits say "Infernal Miracles" or somesuch.


        "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
        On the Chronicles of Darkness Slack Team. PM me for invitation
        Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings

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        • #5
          My main problem is the God-Machine itself. I don't like the feel we are all 0s and 1s for some Skynet. I get that they didn't want to confirm or deny any religion, but to make the world made up of reality holes it exploits using the ghost programs known as angels, or even the part where it feels like it made the reality wholes, or just made reality with holes... it just gives me a bad taste, like how Changeling contracts make up how everything works. And then there's the thing where ghost programs become thinking machines and the whole thing about demons must choose to fall, which means there are probably a lot of sentient angels who chose to not fall.

          ​So there will be no crunch problems in the transition?

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          • #6
            Almost none.

            If you care to search a little you'll find plenty of topics interested in that. If you wade through the sea of "we are tired of people that want to remove the gears" comments, you'll find some very helpful comments that say that you basically just need to change the fluff of the abilities and powers, perhaps some names as well just to drive the point home.

            Cypher becomes your demonic Seal that you unlock the secrets from, Infrastructure is Design, Gadgets are Relics, Cover is Vessel etc. Replace other tech-sounding names as needed, and remove (or as I do, downplay instead of removing) references to gears, cables and cyborg-things and you get the exact same game, except that instead of techno-angel spies running from a machine demiurge you get... well, traditional angel spies running from a traditional demiurge. You could also go a little further and change from the Demiurge God to a Demiurge Devil and instead of angels as antagonists you could have them be loyal devils.

            If you want that kind of game then these details matter little, the core of the game is still there. However, if you want some relationship between heaven and hell, or a focus on something else than a espionage game, then you'll have to either

            a) create your own setting, using or not elements from DtD
            b) play another game
            or c) my favorite, use the lore from another setting together with the rules from DtD. You could use most if not all the fluff from Demon the Fallen (traditional fire and brimstone abrahamic angels), Angel the redemption, In Nomine or any other setting like Supernatural, Hellraiser, Hellblazer or Hell-whatever. As I said the powers, gadgets, demonic forms, cover and other rules are pretty solid, and changing the fluff doesn't break them.


            You'll probably have to adapt or create some small setting rules to better fit into the setting. For example in my own more traditional demon game demons meld with vessels -become mortal- so angels can't find them, and so they can't have multiple covers at the same time, and if they leave a vessel the body just dies. All you probably need are small setting rules like this one. It doesn't change how the whole game works, only a certain aspect.
            Last edited by DiBastet; 10-17-2016, 01:14 PM.

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            • #7
              If one assumes that the God-Machine is God (which isn't something the game establishes, but bear with me), then the setting is says something like "You ask "what kind of God would allow the world to be like this?" Oh, there is a God and there is an order to things in the universe. But God works in mysterious ways. And contrary what priests tell you, you're just not that important to Him. He's worked out a place for you in the universe, but that's for the benefit of the universe (what ever that means) or even a higher form of life, not you."

              I'm sure there are other interpretations. I just got that when I was listening to a somewhat downbeat and elegantly structured piece of music one day. A bit Lovecraftian, but without the theme of relative repulsiveness or insanity at the heart of the cosmos. My point is that this may be the wrong kind of God(-Machine) for your game. Perhaps in your game, God does love every individual person. I'm not sure what sort actions if any He should have to demonstrate this in your game, but it's probably not going to involve harvesting people to dismantle them for spare parts for angel covers. At least, not the ones He saves because they accept Him as their saviour, do good works or whatever. Once you have a benevolent (or benevolent in right places) God(-Machine), what does that make His agents who turn against Him?

              That being said, I might have missed point of what you meant by "hell spawn". Do you want change the God-Machine's means, intentions or both?
              Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 10-17-2016, 01:52 PM.

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              • #8
                The only things you really need to change are the names of things (which admittedly can get difficult, reading while mentally editing the words), only use the non-tech descriptions of demonic form powers, and make exploit gadgets look like they're from hell instead of a sci-fi movie.

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                • #9
                  It's been said dozens of times before, but the God-Machine is a pretty standard reading of the Gnostic demiurge, and all of the sci-fi//synthetic motifs are there to enforce that it is an artificial, false thing. If you really want to double down on that, I'm a big fan of picking either the Divine Fire or Empyrean as the 'true divine' as the counterpart to the Machine's "false divine."

                  And the God-Machine definitely did not create the universe, OP. It merely understands a lot of how things work and exploits its knowledge of those occult laws.


                  Just call me Lex.

                  Female pronouns for me, please.

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                  • #10
                    Well, I wouldn't say definitely. The G-M being what remains of the Creator after a cosmic battle with they-who-became-the-Exarchs which shattered reality and cast it from the supernal is certainly an interpretation one could swing if they felt so inclined.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HunterInTheNight View Post
                      My main problem is the God-Machine itself. I don't like the feel we are all 0s and 1s for some Skynet. I get that they didn't want to confirm or deny any religion, but to make the world made up of reality holes it exploits using the ghost programs known as angels, or even the part where it feels like it made the reality wholes, or just made reality with holes... it just gives me a bad taste, like how Changeling contracts make up how everything works. And then there's the thing where ghost programs become thinking machines and the whole thing about demons must choose to fall, which means there are probably a lot of sentient angels who chose to not fall.

                      ​So there will be no crunch problems in the transition?
                      Who's to say god is not a machine but when most people say a machine they always thing of just cold steel rather the many meaning of a machine
                      1) a constructed thing whether material or immaterial
                      2) any of various apparatuses formerly used to produce stage effects
                      3)a living organism or one of its functional systems

                      Where do you think we got the idea for deus ex machina

                      So you can think of the god-machine a literial machine

                      or as a system of power that is sentient

                      Angels don't always have to be built of cogs and metal they can be fleshy or made of pure energy or taking on many other forms.

                      So demon forms can vary very much.


                      Pleas check out mercy sprax. the art in their helps many of my player get a better idea of what a god-machine might be like. When they go to heaven in the comics.

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                      • #12
                        I thank you for the responses.

                        ​So, I've been going through the three demon books and changing the titles and tweaking everything to fit. If I come upon something so unchangeable, I'll be back and see how we can come up with a solution. Thank you.

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                        • #13
                          First, read these two articles. All the way through.

                          Second, I want to read it. Can you post dev material here?

                          I have refluffed Demon to be Daityas and that worked out really great.

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                          • #14
                            Here, made a homebrew a while back. Lemme know if it helps.

                            http://madnessforums.com/forums/inde...pic,584.0.html


                            nWoD Warhammer Fantasy RPG,
                            WoD Wraith: The Oblivion
                            and Infernum-style Demon: The Descent, Shadows of Abaddon --> http://madnessforums.com/forums/inde...opic,26.0.html

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                            • #15
                              This is for raygungoth and anyone else who wants to use it. This will take a while, as there are a lot of pages to get though, plus life, plus the character sheets I'm building for this campaign, plus attention span. And if anyone thinks I didn't transition it well, let me know and I'll see if I can fix it.

                              Daemons are evil spirits- False. They are not spirits as the World of Darkness knows them. As for the evil part, its really hard for any monster to stay good for any length of time.
                              ​Daemons are fallen angels- True. They rebelled against God for a number of reasons, from not understanding why evil exists in the world to not wanting to serve the humans.
                              ​Daemons are the souls of the wicked dead- False. They aren't and never were human.
                              ​Daemons trade for souls- True, but not in the way as expected. Since they have no ties to God, they have no way of using any souls they collect, as they are too weak on their own. However, the soulless body is now possessable.
                              ​Daemons are imprisoned in Hell- False. They might be looking to find a way in, but they are currently free.
                              ​Hell is a fiery pit or frozen expanse- Few daemons have made it to Hell, but from the bits an pieces they have gathered, It may be fire or ice, but all in all, unpleasant for those not among the Descended.
                              ​Daemons are really good at lying- True. Since the people they wear aren't wholly them, they can choose how their meatsuit responds.
                              ​Daemons can be exorsiced- False. Their meatsuits are a part of them and no amount of work could pry them from it.
                              ​Daemons are burned by holy water of repelled by the cross- False. They were once angels and that sounds like a bad thing to give angels. But it does make them uncomfortable, being reminded of what they no longer are can have a variety of effects, based on the individual daemon, and some want to get as far away from anything doing with God.
                              ​Daemons are immortal- True. Angels don't age, but daemon's meatsuits age, and if the meatsuit dies, they go with it.
                              ​Daemons have great magical powers- True. Being unable to access their God given powers, they have to learn how to pull the infernal energies to warp reality. But Angels are always on the lookout for such flares.
                              ​Daemons' true forms are hideous- Not always. They vary from daemon to daemon, but using it usually attracts unwanted attention.

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