Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What We Know So Far: Geist the Sin-Eater 2nd Edition

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by nofather View Post
    No one seems to be asking for the latter part.
    "Does [a Rank 4 Cthonian being something to run away from] mean that Cthonians will be vastly superior to other ephemerals of the same Rank? I hope that's the case" and "If anything I wish that Rank 5 entities were more powerful so that they are more challenging for seasoned characters" are some sentences, particularly taken in the context of expressing disappointment at not getting main-game mechanics for entities whose last granular mechanical context was "when dealing with other godlike entities, consider them to have hundreds of constantly-refilling points of Essence and the same dicepools as a Rank 5 entity with a sprinkling of automatic successes on top."


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

    Comment


    • Originally posted by nofather View Post

      No one seems to be asking for the latter part.

      Even if they did, 'But if we describe them, people will beat them up,' hasn't stopped people from positing ways to destroy the God Machine, Exarchs, Luna, the entirety of the Abyss, and everything else that's described as ambiguously as possible. Posters and developers can respond to these people on the forums as much as they want, but it's just a fraction of the community. If you're labeling things, people are going to handwave their destructibility, even if you assign a developer to go with every book and pdf sold and have them tell people it's not how it's supposed to be.

      Why should that stop these entities, which are already described as active setting elements within the games, from getting some sort of clarification beyond an ambiguous, 'It has complete control over Drowning and this location.'
      You note that no one is asking for a rank six entity to beat up...and then list people beating up various entities that are, by definition, all but impossible for player beings to destroy. Isn't that a paradox?

      To quote Spoony on this, do not stat out Chthullu; it will just result in players wanting to kill it...and then he comes back angry.

      But if you want a scale, look to Influences. A Spirit divides its Rank among its Influences, and the level of its effects and duration is limited by the level of its Influence. A Rank 5 Spirit thus can only Mass Create something for one minute, or permanently Strengthen a small area of its purview. Logically speaking, Rank 6 allows it to permanently manipulate something to be more to its purview - this is a small change, but given it is permanent there's nothing stopping a Rank 6 entity from slowly warping something until it entirely embodies its purview. It can Mass Create for 10 minutes at a time, can control for days at a time, and single things it creates last hours, rather than the single hour a Rank 5 Spirit could only hope for. Even if the Spirit doesn't have all of its Rank in a single Influence, it will have greater capabilities and more than enough spare Numina that one could shave them off to grant it more Influences, possibly to the point of having two Influences at 6 dots.

      These are not minute things, and it's also not taking into account how high its Essence pools are growing - as Satchel noted, the mere jump from Rank 4 to 5 doubles its Essence pool instead of merely adding another 5, so hitting Rank 6 is not liable to make the pool smaller. It is going to have at least 46 dots of attributes, and may well go above 55. Its Numina will vary, but it may well be above 13 (and as noted, this can be lesser for more Influences). If all that doesn't give it a good reason for being a force of plot, then I have to question just what kinds of things your players are getting into without attracting a lot of attention from other sources that would want to reign them in.

      And to cap it all off, read all that again...and bear in mind it gets worse the higher up the Ranks you go, and this isn't getting into the Numina. This is supposed to be the Chronicles of Darkness, not the chronicles where a Spirit has the stats to permanently control a person's emotions, blood and or bones without the players giving their okay on it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by nofather View Post

        No one seems to be asking for the latter part.

        Even if they did, 'But if we describe them, people will beat them up,' hasn't stopped people from positing ways to destroy the God Machine, Exarchs, Luna, the entirety of the Abyss, and everything else that's described as ambiguously as possible.
        I don’t remember anybody trying to stat them up, though.

        Why should that stop these entities, which are already described as active setting elements within the games, from getting some sort of clarification beyond an ambiguous, 'It has complete control over Drowning and this location.'
        My observation is that their effects are clarified in a roundabout way by their indirect presence; 6+ Influences already allow for “A God Did It” sort of manipulations as Taidragon mentioned, we heard of Aedes in Mage forming from gods of the Shadow’s presence, and so on. Borrowing a more concrete example from Werewolf; would Basra have been a better Hunting Ground if Fenris-Ur was statted up? Or is Firstborn-as-a-setting-element being shown nicely enough by, well, Basra being screwed up?

        But then again, Imperial Mysteries in 1E was a thing and still is, so I guess there’s demand for things like thjs.

        EDIT: And besides, if players end up defeating Rank 4-5 ephemerals, then it’s a reason to congratulate them because the characters are now god-slayers, not to cheapen their victory by escalating the power levels like some of the more absurd Dragonball episodes and reducing the enemy to just another midboss.
        Last edited by 21C Hermit; 03-29-2018, 12:57 AM.


        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
          You note that no one is asking for a rank six entity to beat up...and then list people beating up various entities that are, by definition, all but impossible for player beings to destroy. Isn't that a paradox?

          To quote Spoony on this, do not stat out Chthullu; it will just result in players wanting to kill it...and then he comes back angry.
          I was referring to this thread, or at least the last few posts. I already said that it's not a character sheet we need, but even if we were given one it doesn't matter if you stat out Cthulhu, people will want to kill it anyways, and do it. The 'it's a plot device' works both ways. Developers aren't there to tell you things can't be done, storytellers aren't obligated to show antagonist character sheets to players as they sit at the table, and that wouldn't stop people from doing it anyways. Having some clarification, even brief, on these things would do nothing but help storytellers.

          But if you want a scale, look to Influences.
          Influence and its ambiguousness is something I've mentioned already.

          A Spirit divides its Rank among its Influences, and the level of its effects and duration is limited by the level of its Influence.
          Nearly everything has Influences. This is a big thing that seems to reach across all these entities. And it's not limited to Rank. But aside from that:

          'Influence is measured in both scale and duration.' is an introductory line to the abilities of Influence, with no further explanation of scale beyond 'Create/Mass Create.'

          A Rank 5 Spirit thus can only Mass Create something for one minute, or permanently Strengthen a small area of its purview. Logically speaking, Rank 6 allows it to permanently manipulate something to be more to its purview - this is a small change, but given it is permanent there's nothing stopping a Rank 6 entity from slowly warping something until it entirely embodies its purview.
          Why would it have to make a small change? Do you know how far Manipulate can go in a single usage? Do you know its scale? Can only one thing be Manipulated? And this Rank 6 entity doesn't seem very powerful using several turns to transform one thing to another. Ephemeral Entity with Influences: Drowning and This Place. Can it Drown a ghost or other thing that can't be drowned? If it's a ghost can it just expand the size of This Place? Is it based on line of sight, or perception? These things aren't even touched on.

          It can Mass Create for 10 minutes at a time, can control for days at a time, and single things it creates last hours, rather than the single hour a Rank 5 Spirit could only hope for. Even if the Spirit doesn't have all of its Rank in a single Influence, it will have greater capabilities and more than enough spare Numina that one could shave them off to grant it more Influences, possibly to the point of having two Influences at 6 dots.
          Another thing is the Numina. Because these things all use the same Numina from the various core books, but you look at something like Unwashed Isaac, a Rank 5 angel, and he's got nothing special or unique to him. Sure, he could have some spare Numina that would be

          These are not minute things, and it's also not taking into account how high its Essence pools are growing - as Satchel noted, the mere jump from Rank 4 to 5 doubles its Essence pool instead of merely adding another 5, so hitting Rank 6 is not liable to make the pool smaller. It is going to have at least 46 dots of attributes, and may well go above 55. Its Numina will vary, but it may well be above 13 (and as noted, this can be lesser for more Influences). If all that doesn't give it a good reason for being a force of plot, then I have to question just what kinds of things your players are getting into without attracting a lot of attention from other sources that would want to reign them in.
          Do you know what the Maximum Essence Per Turn is for ephemerals? Even rank 1-5? Because it's not mentioned, like so many other things. And have you seen these games? Every one has a chart for your Supernatural Attribute to go up to 10. And are these 'other sources that would want to rein them in' be any less ambiguous. Because as you describe it, you're just bringing more big dicepools and the same limitations as any other ephemeral.

          And to cap it all off, read all that again...and bear in mind it gets worse the higher up the Ranks you go, and this isn't getting into the Numina. This is supposed to be the Chronicles of Darkness, not the chronicles where a Spirit has the stats to permanently control a person's emotions, blood and or bones without the players giving their okay on it.
          If a Rank 6 or higher entity flaunts the rules in a way a Rank 3 creature doesn't, then how the Rank 3 thing works should at least be clarified. If it's just bigger dicepools and stronger Influence, that's fine. If it's something different, then that should be explored. Because as I pointed out, these things are already active and antagonistic setting elements in the game.
          Last edited by nofather; 03-29-2018, 01:53 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
            I don’t remember anybody trying to stat them up, though.
            That's right. Because it doesn't matter if they stat it or not.

            My observation is that their effects are clarified in a roundabout way by their indirect presence; 6+ Influences already allow for “A God Did It” sort of manipulations as Taidragon mentioned, we heard of Aedes in Mage forming from gods of the Shadow’s presence, and so on. Borrowing a more concrete example from Werewolf; would Basra have been a better Hunting Ground if Fenris-Ur was statted up? Or is Firstborn-as-a-setting-element being shown nicely enough by, well, Basra being screwed up?

            EDIT: And besides, if players end up defeating Rank 4-5 ephemerals, then it’s a reason to congratulate them because the characters are now god-slayers, not to cheapen their victory by escalating the power levels like some of the more absurd Dragonball episodes and reducing the enemy to just another midboss.
            You said this: "I believe there’s a distinction to be made here, between “Rank 6+ entities should be engaged with in a story as active setting elements” and “Rank 4-5 are chumps on paper, so let’s stat up Rank 6+ for more things to beat up.”"

            Well lets make a further distinction. Wanting information about Rank 6+ entities does not mean I want to have a character sheet so PCs can beat them up at my table. Because I already said It's not a character sheet we need, but some description of capability, scale, and limits (even if they're scant). And I don't appreciate this being attributed to me. I'm not saying that your argument is 'Rules need to be made more unclear' am I?

            I did not say Fenris-Ur should be statted up. I did say he's an active and engaged part of the setting, though. He's literally calling Blood Talons from across the globe and driving them mad. This is the kind of thing players would want to get involved with, or be driven to getting involved with. It's the kind of thing they are going to engage with in something that goes beyond 'Well we're in Basra now, I guess I better kill all not-Blood Talons.'

            Comment


            • Originally posted by nofather View Post
              You said this: "I believe there’s a distinction to be made here, between “Rank 6+ entities should be engaged with in a story as active setting elements” and “Rank 4-5 are chumps on paper, so let’s stat up Rank 6+ for more things to beat up.”"

              Well lets make a further distinction. Wanting information about Rank 6+ entities does not mean I want to have a character sheet so PCs can beat them up at my table. Because I already said http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/geist-the-sin-eaters/1032849-what-we-know-so-far-geist-the-sin-eater-2nd-edition?p=1200621#post1200621"]It's not a character sheet we need, but some description of capability, scale, and limits (even if they're scant).[/URL] And I don't appreciate this being attributed to me. I'm not saying that your argument is 'Rules need to be made more unclear' am I?

              I did not say Fenris-Ur should be statted up. I did say he's an active and engaged part of the setting, though. He's literally calling Blood Talons from across the globe and driving them mad. This is the kind of thing players would want to get involved with, or be driven to getting involved with. It's the kind of thing they are going to engage with in something that goes beyond 'Well we're in Basra now, I guess I better kill all not-Blood Talons.'
              Okay, so that bolded part looks like the only issue here (at least between you and I), since I agree with... almost everything else you said in this quoted part. Looks like I was conflating your position with the one you sympathized with; my bad.

              So the real divergence seems to be whether the published contents as it is allow for meaningful interaction between unquantifiable gods and quantified player characters. I agree it does, and you disagree - right? Well, that’s... not a debate to end cleanly, it seems.
              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 03-29-2018, 02:00 AM. Reason: Clarity, and ugh autocorrect


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

              Comment


              • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                Why would it have to make a small change? Do you know how far Manipulate can go in a single usage? Do you know its scale? Can only one thing be Manipulated? And this Rank 6 entity doesn't seem very powerful using several turns to transform one thing to another.
                You are talking about the Philosopher's Stone of powers, where a Spirit can literally cause someone who doesn't know where it is to make someone from happy and relaxed to suicidal or furious, or transform their body into splintering bits of wood or grains of salt. A turn is seconds in this system - even if it doesn't get it on the first try that's still an impressively fast time. And even if it isn't fast, is that supposed to make it better for the person being changed forever? The best a person can hope for is either a generous Ban or to die quickly when being changed, because once changed there's no way back unless another, similarly powered entity happens to be in the neighborhood and change them into something similar to what they were before. Even Mages, with powers vast and unknowable, can't permanently change someone or something without the chance of the enchantment being undone. A permanent Manipulate doesn't have that weakness.

                Ephemeral Entity with Influences: Drowning and This Place. Can it Drown a ghost or other thing that can't be drowned? If it's a ghost can it just expand the size of This Place? Is it based on line of sight, or perception? These things aren't even touched on.
                If it seems vaguely possible for a Spirit to drown a ghost, then it is. That is the level of power you are dealing with. And even if it can't literally drown a Ghost, all it needs to do is delay it enough to meander over to it and literally tear it apart, if not devour it. Remember the level of Attributes it has at its disposal at Rank 5, much less Rank 6. A manifested Spirit is not something you want to tangle with, and Ghosts are always in the neighborhood.

                Another thing is the Numina. Because these things all use the same Numina from the various core books, but you look at something like Unwashed Isaac, a Rank 5 angel, and he's got nothing special or unique to him. Sure, he could have some spare Numina that would be
                Who needs unique Numina when Blast works off of a range based off of Power, with their Rank acting as a damage modifier? When Dement will have an ungodly amount of Power behind it? When Seek can allow it to bolster it to 120 miles at least? The Numina in the books are varied and cover most avenues - if they can't cover what you want the entity to do, look to Influences. If that's not enough, then make a power that fits it.

                Do you know what the Maximum Essence Per Turn is for ephemerals? Even rank 1-5? Because it's not mentioned, like so many other things. And have you seen these games? Every one has a chart for your Supernatural Attribute to go up to 10. And are these 'other sources that would want to rein them in' be any less ambiguous. Because as you describe it, you're just bringing more big dicepools and the same limitations as any other ephemeral.
                What says there is a limit beyond how much essence they have to bleed? Normally Spirits have to scrimp and save essence to keep themselves out of the Shadow and because their essence pools are so limited, spending anything hurts. A Rank 6 is going to have the storage for over 50 - they're going to have enough to throw around for a bit, and even if they don't those scraps are going to hurt for the above reasons.

                If a Rank 6 or higher entity flaunts the rules in a way a Rank 3 creature doesn't, then how the Rank 3 thing works should at least be clarified. If it's just bigger dicepools and stronger Influence, that's fine. If it's something different, then that should be explored. Because as I pointed out, these things are already active and antagonistic setting elements in the game.
                We've already discussed the implications of statting out a Rank 6 Ephemeral Entity. Permanent changes in things, transforming them into things that they were not once before. Excessively high die pools, massive essence pools to draw from, and very high Influences to use them. They may not be gods on paper, but to any normal person these entities are going to be godlike, and any wrong move with such an entity means someone in the group is going to suffer something that will not ever go away. This isn't a fireball being thrown, this is dealing with something that can literally transform something into something else in the span of moments. And that's also not getting into Spirits of esoteric things such as Time, Growth or Stillness.
                Last edited by Taidragon; 03-29-2018, 02:12 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                  Okay, so that bolded part looks like the only issue here (at least between you and I), since I agree with... almost everything else you said in this quoted part. Looks like I was conflating your position with another; my bad.
                  It's not, I did the same thing with Tessie, I only commented on one of their more recent posts (well, about this at least).

                  So the real divergence seems to be whether the published contents as it is allow for meaningful interaction between unquantifiable gods and quantified player characters. I agree it does, and you disagree - right? Well, that’s... not a debate to end cleanly, it seems.
                  I think you can have meaningful interaction, but at some point a storyteller would benefit (and I believe benefit a lot) from some clarity. It's not just Influences, like I pointed out to Taidragon, they are ambiguous not at the Rank 6+ level, but anywhere Influence comes in. Are these things with ridiculously obscure banes and bans? Or have they surpassed that? If Krewe #1 creeps into the Underworld and encounters a Rank 4 ghost, what are the noticable differences between it and a Rank 5 or 6 one, beyond a 'What Rank is that thing' ability? They have some rules they're limited by, some sort of impact they have on the world around them just by being there, but what?

                  Comment


                  • ...So, two things I've though about:

                    ​1) Why do you think Geist needed such an overhaul between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition? I mean, Changeling is also featuring quite a few changes, but with Geist, many terms and mechanics are being completely changed. Why is that?

                    ​2) What themes/symbolism/motifs do you think will be used for the Burdens? I have a few thoughts, but I'd love to hear the opinions of others:

                    Animals (especially ones either mythological, extinct, or associated with death)
                    Elements
                    Stages of Grief
                    People who have traveled to the Underworld/Afterlife
                    (like Orpheus, Yama, or Dante)
                    Terrain

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mangaholic13 View Post
                      ...So, two things I've though about:

                      ​1) Why do you think Geist needed such an overhaul between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition? I mean, Changeling is also featuring quite a few changes, but with Geist, many terms and mechanics are being completely changed. Why is that?
                      One admittedly big reason was that the Manifestations/Haunts and Keys were extremely unwieldy to make new versions of due to their quadratic nature. Every dot of a Manifestation had a unique effect per key, which added up very fast and made it very hard for anyone to make any kind of unique effect. Even the default powers had repeats in them.

                      Comment


                      • 1. Like Taidragon said, Geist 1e had some clunky parts that actually needed overhauled.
                        2. Since the 2e core rules changed a lot about how ghosts operate, that naturally had ramifications for Geist, and the dev team seems to be going for a more thoughtful "how do we bring this in line with the core?" rather than just reskinning 1e.
                        3. Geist 1e only ever had the core book and one sort-of supplement, so in some ways it's easier to do a ground-up overhaul on it than, say, Changeling or Promethean, which were more fully detailed in their first editions. Geist is just more open-ended and thus easier to mess around with.

                        Comment


                        • With Easter around the corner; another holiday filled with imagery of death, resurrection, and afterlife; I wonder if we will see another dev blog post soon. It's great how many Geist fans are posting on these forums

                          Comment


                          • We have any hint about when the 2nd edition will be released?

                            Comment


                            • Much like with Changeling second edition, we will have to wait for the Kickstarter, then after that the period where they square it up and then release the game proper. The kickstarter is likely to happen this year, but it is hard to tell.

                              Simply put, the game will be released when it will be released.

                              Comment


                              • I'm really looking forward for it. From what I've read Geist the Sin-eater improved a lot.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X