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What We Know So Far: Geist the Sin-Eater 2nd Edition

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  • #91
    My hope for 2e is that Synergy can be made to re-enforce this concept. Second Chances for the Bound, second chances for the Geist, second chances for Ghosts, etc.


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    • #92
      Alkesay and Wyrdhamster, I disagree with you both completely. What kind of mechanic are you looking for to provide 'second chances'? Also, in terms of in-setting solutions...that's what they storyteller is supposed to help illustrate... I've run numerous games and in each one, the character were compelled to help the ghosts, not by me telling them to, but because of the way they built their characters, read the rules and setting, and so on.

      I don't understand what kind of mechanic would be wanted to 'provide a second chance'. This makes no sense to me. A Game of second changes...the tag line is about the second chance the characters have at life after their death. If you look at the type of characters that can be built, they all represent how their lives will be with their second chances...some use this to help others pass on, some use this to celebrate all that life has to offer, some use this to enact a type of justice to those that would harm lives, etc. etc. I mean, that says it right there does it not? Not to mention the fact that these powers that the characters are granted are used to actually enact these things. Not just for 'fun'. Of course, you could just play randomly and without any type of motive behind your character's actions,etc. but would you even enjoy that? I mean what would be the end-game then?

      Of course, as someone who has had this since its inception, maybe I'm a little jaded, but even after the first time reading it, I understood how it would work towards that straight away...



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      • #93
        Originally posted by EldritchMinister View Post
        I don't understand what kind of mechanic would be wanted to 'provide a second chance'. This makes no sense to me. A Game of second changes...the tag line is about the second chance the characters have at life after their death. If you look at the type of characters that can be built, they all represent how their lives will be with their second chances...some use this to help others pass on, some use this to celebrate all that life has to offer, some use this to enact a type of justice to those that would harm lives, etc. etc. I mean, that says it right there does it not? Not to mention the fact that these powers that the characters are granted are used to actually enact these things. Not just for 'fun'. Of course, you could just play randomly and without any type of motive behind your character's actions,etc. but would you even enjoy that? I mean what would be the end-game then?
        If all that is about Second Chances is that characters become Bound by death and coming once again to life, it's like saying that Vampire is game about everlasting hunger as you only once feed on your Sire on Embrace and later non at all. Or that Mage is game about sorcerers because you cast one spell at Awakening - and later you cannot. Or that Promethean is game about stolen lives and alchemy just because they are once Created and later do not learn any Alchemy. Or Beast being game about Hunger and you do not need to feed your Horror every session a bit.

        We all know it's simply not true and all games support their basic premise by all the life of their PCs. Mages cast spells and uncover Mysteries all the time. Prometheans are living and breathing Alchemy, always changing. Vampires are all the time hunger for blood and power. Werewolves need at least once in 3 months ( on low Primal Urge ) to Hunt, or they become true monsters.

        So how Second Chances can return as motif in mechanics of Geist game? Maybe Sin Eaters can 'stole' part's of resolved ghosts histories? They can resolve tragedy and made themselves forever part of story? Something like Demons stealing 'lives' of their Covers? ( Like getting Skills or Merits from this? ) Or maybe Sin-Eaters let ghosts once again LIVE, like granting their new bodies? Or that Bounds help living mortals also, to rise from their lives 'dead end'? You know, Second Chances beside 'I returned from grave once, now what to do with my life'. Giving someone real SECOND CHANCE.


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        • #94
          Of course, you could just play randomly and without any type of motive behind your character's actions,etc.
          And nothing would affect it. You can act as ravenous maniac in Vampire, and Beast would devour you. It's the core of gothic.
          You can try to hide from your nature and duty in Werewolf, but your nature will find you. It's the core of savage.
          And if you just want to celebrate the whole new life in Geist, saying "f*ck it! I'm a ghost-powered superhero!", how will the core theme reflect this?

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          • #95
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            If all that is about Second Chances is that characters become Bound by death and coming once again to life, it's like saying that Vampire is game about everlasting hunger as you only once feed on your Sire on Embrace and later non at all. Or that Mage is game about sorcerers because you cast one spell at Awakening - and later you cannot. Or that Promethean is game about stolen lives and alchemy just because they are once Created and later do not learn any Alchemy. Or Beast being game about Hunger and you do not need to feed your Horror every session a bit.
            These are all false analogues. When you feed you stop being hungry. When you're done casting a spell you're no longer actively practicing magic. But when you're resurrected by your Geist you don't stop having your second chance. Every single session will relate to their second chance because everything your character's doing is part of their second chance.
            Of course there needs to be more than just that in order to properly reinforce the theme (which I too would like to learn more about), but you're severely underselling the importance of the Bargain. It is something that does affect them through all their lives. It's just easier to ignore. Both because of the lack of known mechanics that support that theme, and because it's a very broad/vague theme in comparison to the other gamelines.


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            • #96
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              These are all false analogues. When you feed you stop being hungry. When you're done casting a spell you're no longer actively practicing magic. But when you're resurrected by your Geist you don't stop having your second chance. Every single session will relate to their second chance because everything your character's doing is part of their second chance.
              And you never stop giving that second chance, because the geist is getting one too. And you never stop being able to give it to others, because every problem that a ghost died to soon to fix is something you can fix - and yes, there are other games where you might be able to do that for a ghost, but none where it's what the game is about. And Sineaters in first edition benefit hard by granting that second chance (fixing the ghost's issues) or taking it away forever (eating the ghost).

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              • #97
                I guess this is where we differ. I mean we can go back and forth on what you think reinforces the game versus what I believe reinforces the game. But that can be said with all of these game lines. I have had some very successful Geist games that I have been part of both player and some long running Chronicles that I have been storyteller. They have all been very character driven and in each one, despite different gaming groups altogether, the players have all exhibited some sort of lending aid to the ghosts that have not passed on and protected the living from dead that would do them wrong, etc. I have yet to run or be part of a game that those playing felt that the premise of Geist was lost. These stories varied quite a bit, but all focused on the fact that these characters had a second chance at life and they were not wasting it (not in terms of, I'm going to just use my "super powers" for fucking around either).

                At any rate, I am looking forward to 2E. This game line is probably my favorite.
                Last edited by EldritchMinister; 04-18-2017, 02:54 PM.

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                • #98
                  Totally agree with EldritchMinister here. I don't even see how that concept could be strange or incomprehensible, honestly.
                  Additionally, I don't think the thematic core needs to be directly represented by mechanics like Synergy or something similar, but it sounds like some of you guys want that (which is fine for your game tables, I simply see it differently).
                  Aleksay re:
                  saying "f*ck it! I'm a ghost-powered superhero!", how will the core theme reflect this?
                  First of all, going I AM A SUPERHERO is a completely valid decision about what to do with your newfound live and powers - you could say, what to do with your second chance at life.
                  And since you seemed to be mostly interested in what consequences there are with ignoring the 'calling', so to speak: Ghosts notice Bound, and are drawn to them. There WILL be consequences when you try to ignore them, because being constantly swarmed by an ever-increasing number of Ghosts trying to make you do something for them simply is not an opportunity an ST would let go to create Drama.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                    Totally agree with EldritchMinister here. I don't even see how that concept could be strange or incomprehensible, honestly.
                    Additionally, I don't think the thematic core needs to be directly represented by mechanics like Synergy or something similar, but it sounds like some of you guys want that (which is fine for your game tables, I simply see it differently).
                    Aleksay re:

                    First of all, going I AM A SUPERHERO is a completely valid decision about what to do with your newfound live and powers - you could say, what to do with your second chance at life.
                    And since you seemed to be mostly interested in what consequences there are with ignoring the 'calling', so to speak: Ghosts notice Bound, and are drawn to them. There WILL be consequences when you try to ignore them, because being constantly swarmed by an ever-increasing number of Ghosts trying to make you do something for them simply is not an opportunity an ST would let go to create Drama.
                    Also? Superheroes would tend to create a fair amount of Ghosts as a byproduct of their activities, I'd think.


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                    • Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
                      First of all, going I AM A SUPERHERO is a completely valid decision about what to do with your newfound live and powers - you could say, what to do with your second chance at life.
                      And since you seemed to be mostly interested in what consequences there are with ignoring the 'calling', so to speak: Ghosts notice Bound, and are drawn to them. There WILL be consequences when you try to ignore them, because being constantly swarmed by an ever-increasing number of Ghosts trying to make you do something for them simply is not an opportunity an ST would let go to create Drama.
                      This is, in fact, the character concept that got me excited enough about Geist to try running it.


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                      • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                        If all that is about Second Chances is that characters become Bound by death and coming once again to life, it's like saying that Vampire is game about everlasting hunger as you only once feed on your Sire on Embrace and later non at all. Or that Mage is game about sorcerers because you cast one spell at Awakening - and later you cannot. Or that Promethean is game about stolen lives and alchemy just because they are once Created and later do not learn any Alchemy. Or Beast being game about Hunger and you do not need to feed your Horror every session a bit.

                        We all know it's simply not true and all games support their basic premise by all the life of their PCs. Mages cast spells and uncover Mysteries all the time. Prometheans are living and breathing Alchemy, always changing. Vampires are all the time hunger for blood and power. Werewolves need at least once in 3 months ( on low Primal Urge ) to Hunt, or they become true monsters.

                        So how Second Chances can return as motif in mechanics of Geist game? Maybe Sin Eaters can 'stole' part's of resolved ghosts histories? They can resolve tragedy and made themselves forever part of story? Something like Demons stealing 'lives' of their Covers? ( Like getting Skills or Merits from this? ) Or maybe Sin-Eaters let ghosts once again LIVE, like granting their new bodies? Or that Bounds help living mortals also, to rise from their lives 'dead end'? You know, Second Chances beside 'I returned from grave once, now what to do with my life'. Giving someone real SECOND CHANCE.
                        I'm not sure why of that is needed. But: what if every time you resolve a ghost's unfinished business, you in effect earn some “credit” in the “Life Exchange”? When a Sin-Eater comes back to life, there are consequences (such as a fraying of Synergy and someone else dying). What if helping or destroying a ghosts earned some sort of special experience that can be spent to mitigate or prevent such consequences? Is that the short of thing you're thinking of?


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                        • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                          I'm not sure why of that is needed. But: what if every time you resolve a ghost's unfinished business, you in effect earn some “credit” in the “Life Exchange”? When a Sin-Eater comes back to life, there are consequences (such as a fraying of Synergy and someone else dying). What if helping or destroying a ghosts earned some sort of special experience that can be spent to mitigate or prevent such consequences? Is that the short of thing you're thinking of?
                          Something like Fate Points in Warhammer? Hmm, this could be interesting. Collecting ghosts to have MORE 'second chances' to spend in your new life.


                          Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                          My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                          MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

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                          • Or, expanding on the thought, the currency might also be used to grant “second chances” to others, perhaps through your krewe.


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                            • I don't think I'm following this at all. Please elaborate, if you will. What do you mean 'more second chances to spend'? The whole idea behind second chances is the second chance YOUR character has gained by merging (for lack of a better term of course) with the Geist and what you do afterwards with the gifts bestowed upon your second chance. You now have the ability to see those that have not passed on and enter Twilight to engage more with them...you have manifestations that can help you achieve these things. You are wanting some sort of game mechanic that forces the player characters to do good for others in the game? Is that what this is coming down to? This way it would be an integral part instead of leaving it to the players and ST to point this out in story?

                              Like what has been mentioned, you can ignore the ghosts that see you and come to you (they all now know you...or can get to know you...) for aid, but think of how that would drive one insane. You would almost (at least a character I would play) get to a point that you would appease them and help them for your own sanity and mental rest. One of the things that I enjoy about Geist is the fact that it does not force you into a certain role, but allows you the space to choose your role and also allows the ST the space to create a story that NEEDS your characters to help the others. Some would say that this was TOO broad and should have been a bit more narrow. I can see that too, but again, I'm partial to Geist is one of my favorite games even in it's 1.1 edition. You also have to think of the Geist...there are wants and needs for the Geist that need to be fulfilled. You don't want to risk having a takeover....there was an SAS that the character was completely taken over by the Geist...Ah! Dem Bones. It was a nice take on the idea of what happens when you are overpowered by your Geist and lose control.

                              The idea of currency used to grant 'second chances' to others, you mean allowing a Geist to merge during death? Or perhaps seeing their death and stopping it altogether? I mean I think that could work, however, there would have to be some serious consequences to something like that as you are now taking away from the cycle of life and death...hmmm.

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                              • Not to cut in but my hope for 2e is that it will cover more of how sin eater's interact with ghost stories. not just ghosts but the actual stories surrounding them and how you can interact and resolve them. every ghost is a tragic ending but they don't have to stay that way. The 2e line has been really great about getting you into the headspace and experience of being whatever your template is (how vampires interact with their beasts and sense blood, mages' obsessions and mage sight, ect.) and i'm really looking forward to getting into the headspace of a sin eater.
                                I'm also hoping for a major overhaul of the manifestations when they become haunts. Alot of the powers in 1e were very much combat based so it seemed to encourage fighting and those abilities that wern't were almost overpowered when dealing with ghosts so it might clear up any real intrigue or mystery to fast which isn't really great in a game about ghost stories. I prefered alot of the ceremonies and would like to see more abilities fall into their more subtle line. I'd like to see the powers as a little more spooky and a little less dangerous.
                                And i'd really like to see more about the mystery cult aspect of krews and the dead conspiracies. Cults have kinda been a major thing in chronicles of darkness since god machine came out and i'd like to see that apply here. Death, ghost and funerary cults are a really cool thing in games and i'd like to see some stuff on that
                                Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 04-21-2017, 05:02 PM.

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