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  • New to Geist - Lots of Questions

    Hello, I am new to Geist and I have alot of questions.

    #1) If they come back from the dead are they truly alive? - This was answered but to be complete I added it here.
    #2) If truly alive do they function as any other living being (Heartbeat, Eat, Bodily functions, ETC...)?
    #3) Will their blood sustain a Vampire?
    #4) Do the have their soul and if so does it have marks of death upon it?
    #5) If they have a hitchhiker in a Geist that they have made a deal with can that Geist be separated/pulled way from the living person, and they remain living?
    #6) Can they father a child/get pregnant and if so is their progeny affected by the Geist that inhabits them?
    #7) If living can they be turned into a Vampire or become awakened?

    This is just the beginning and I will have more based upon the answer and how much I learn about the system.

  • #2
    Can't speak for anything that might potentially change in the upcoming second edition, of course. From a first edition standpoint:

    1) They're alive, but carry the aspect of death, meaning effects that differentiate between living and undead are kind of finicky about the Bound. For instance, the Old Laws of the Kerberoi treat them as living, I believe, while the possessing powers of the vampiric strix don't require their full ability to possess the living in order to inhabit the Bound.
    2) They're biologically alive, although their blood also carries ectoplasmic traces that act like an auxiliary immune system, and they are able to maintain consciousness regardless of any injury short of death. They eat, they sleep, their heart beats.
    3) Sure. Those ectoplasmic traces might cause some form of side effect, but I don't believe any book has addressed it, so it's Storyteller fiat.
    4) Not sure what you mean by death marks. They have a soul, but it may or may not necessarily still resemble a human soul.
    5) Yes, but they lose access to a number of aspects of the Sin-Eater template, and it generally seems to be a traumatic experience. See page 243.
    6) Yes, Sin-Eaters are fertile. Nothing has been written on the subject of their children being anything but normal humans.
    7) No. Generally, any process that imbues a major character template depends upon the stable, normal condition of the human soul. Glue a geist onto the thing and the blood of the Embrace doesn't know what the hell.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
      2) They're biologically alive, although their blood also carries ectoplasmic traces that act like an auxiliary immune system, and they are able to maintain consciousness regardless of any injury short of death. They eat, they sleep, their heart beats.
      And while death will make them go unconcious, if the Geist wants to keep the deal going, they'll just wake up the next day anyway. Only slightly worse for wear.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        4) Not sure what you mean by death marks. They have a soul, but it may or may not necessarily still resemble a human soul.
        The CoD system that I know best is Mage, The Death Mage can look at the souls of the living and look to see if they have any number of marks, listed below. Would the Sin-Eater register as having their soul messed with.

        The Geist inside them would fall under the purview of a Death Mage, can the Death Mage attack the Geist without harming the host or are they more or less one entity. I am interested in how they would interact with the other CoD supernaturals.

        And just what they are physically, example: They are inhabited by a Geist, does that allow then to reach across into the Twilight and attach full ghosts. I am assuming that since they are truly living that they are in the physical world and not in the Twilight world.

        Originally posted by Mage: the Awakening page 128, Soul Marks (Death •)
        She can discern
        the presence of Persistent Conditions, if the subject is Awakened, if
        the subject is a supernatural being, if the subject has created a soul
        stone (see “Soul Stones” p. 98), if the subject has had her soul tampered
        with, if the subject is Possessed, the presence of any Gnosis 5+
        Legacy Attainments, if the subject has eaten or otherwise consumed
        another’s soul, or if the subject is suffering from a Paradox Condition.
        Last edited by Hardwire99; 01-27-2017, 08:33 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Geist 1E doesn't mention anything specific about soul "markings" or how they may register to other supernaturals. Ghosts always recognize Sin-Eaters for what they are, although how/why is left somewhat vague. At this point, I'd say most of those are up to the ST. If you're going strictly by what's mentioned in the books, the mage should recognize that Sin-Eaters are supernatural and possessed. I only say the possessed part because some sections in Hunter: Mortal Remains discussing the Lucifuge and Malleus Maleficarum determine that Sin-Eaters are, in fact, possessed but immune to exorcism.

          Page 230 of the Geist rulebook details the conflict between "Sin-Eater versus Self (or Geist)." Bound are called Bound because they are bound to their geists at the level of the soul, and attacking a Sin-Eater's geist would absolutely hurt both, just as forcibly removing a geist from its Bound is damaging to the Sin-Eater.

          I wouldn't go so far as to say they're one entity, because geists are capable of willingly releasing a Bound from their contract without the Sin-Eater dying; it's mentioned in a tiny section without any examples, explanation, or resulting aftermath given (hopefully something that will be rectified with 2E). The 1E rulebook discusses it a little in some different areas, but the overall picture I got was that it really is like a possession by an ephemeral entity, just a little bit deeper and involving soul-fusion. If ghost possession is like sticking on a bandaid, geist contracts are like surgically embedding the bandaid into your skin. Depending on the level of synergy, the drives and agendas of either side will affect the other, and depending on the strength of their wills and how compatible they are, it could be either a constant battle for control or a partnership.

          See page 175: "In a sort of reverse possession, the Sin-Eater seizes the full senses of his geist, pouring his consciousness into the alien creature bound to him. This allows a Sin-Eater to see into and physically interact with Twilight at the cost of losing some sense of his physical surroundings. Of course, by opening himself up to Twilight, a Sin-Eater places himself in a position where ghosts can interact with him as well...In this state, a Sin-Eater can combat a ghost that hasn’t manifested and can manipulate Twilight objects. Only the body of a Sin-Eater makes the translation. Any physical weapons held by the Sin-Eater at the time are left behind, along with his flesh and bone...Combating an unmanifested ghost is apt to draw some strange looks from bystanders. Instead of a life-or-death contest, normal humans only see some weirdo slashing and flailing around him at imaginary foes. Fortunately, attacks made in Twilight remain in Twilight, unless someone walks directly into the Sin-Eater and takes an elbow or fist to the face."


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chesh View Post
            Geist 1E doesn't mention anything specific about soul "markings" or how they may register to other supernaturals. Ghosts always recognize Sin-Eaters for what they are, although how/why is left somewhat vague. At this point, I'd say most of those are up to the ST. If you're going strictly by what's mentioned in the books, the mage should recognize that Sin-Eaters are supernatural and possessed. I only say the possessed part because some sections in Hunter: Mortal Remains discussing the Lucifuge and Malleus Maleficarum determine that Sin-Eaters are, in fact, possessed but immune to exorcism.

            Page 230 of the Geist rulebook details the conflict between "Sin-Eater versus Self (or Geist)." Bound are called Bound because they are bound to their geists at the level of the soul, and attacking a Sin-Eater's geist would absolutely hurt both, just as forcibly removing a geist from its Bound is damaging to the Sin-Eater.

            I wouldn't go so far as to say they're one entity, because geists are capable of willingly releasing a Bound from their contract without the Sin-Eater dying; it's mentioned in a tiny section without any examples, explanation, or resulting aftermath given (hopefully something that will be rectified with 2E). The 1E rulebook discusses it a little in some different areas, but the overall picture I got was that it really is like a possession by an ephemeral entity, just a little bit deeper and involving soul-fusion. If ghost possession is like sticking on a bandaid, geist contracts are like surgically embedding the bandaid into your skin. Depending on the level of synergy, the drives and agendas of either side will affect the other, and depending on the strength of their wills and how compatible they are, it could be either a constant battle for control or a partnership.

            See page 175: "In a sort of reverse possession, the Sin-Eater seizes the full senses of his geist, pouring his consciousness into the alien creature bound to him. This allows a Sin-Eater to see into and physically interact with Twilight at the cost of losing some sense of his physical surroundings. Of course, by opening himself up to Twilight, a Sin-Eater places himself in a position where ghosts can interact with him as well...In this state, a Sin-Eater can combat a ghost that hasn’t manifested and can manipulate Twilight objects. Only the body of a Sin-Eater makes the translation. Any physical weapons held by the Sin-Eater at the time are left behind, along with his flesh and bone...Combating an unmanifested ghost is apt to draw some strange looks from bystanders. Instead of a life-or-death contest, normal humans only see some weirdo slashing and flailing around him at imaginary foes. Fortunately, attacks made in Twilight remain in Twilight, unless someone walks directly into the Sin-Eater and takes an elbow or fist to the face."

            Ok since you are quoting 1e I bought the book, I was going to wait until 2e came out but what the heck it is only money.

            So based on what you have said and reading the 1e a little I would have to say that the Death Mage would look at it as just another possession until he started to try and extract the Geist then he would find out that there was something special, but not really knowing what, about this possession. And, in 1e at least, he is not able to exorcise the Geist. I would also guess that there would be some kind of Clash of Will if a Mage/Vampire/Werewolf/ETC were to attempt to alter the soul of the Sin-Eater in any way. With Sever Soul (Death •••) you could remove that soul of a normal human but to affect the soul of an Mage it would take Sever the Awakened Soul (Death •••••), it has already been stated that it would take a similar spell to remove the soul of a Vampire so I would imagine that it would be that same for a Sin-Eater.

            I was also reading the Post "What We Know So Far: Geist the Sin-Eater 2nd Edition" and I see that the Sin-Eater consumes plasm (the residue left behind by a ghost) in mage that description is called Ectoplasm, so I wonder if it is the same thing, I would assume since they are trying to make the systems compatible to allow for mixing the systems it would be the same but we will see.




            Originally posted by Robert D View Post
            As the Bargain makes Sin-Eaters partially ghostly, they can physically eat ghosts, EVEN if it isn’t manifesting. They convert the ghost’s ephemera into Plasm as it’s being eaten.
            Would lead me to believe that they will be able to physically attack a Ghost even while it is in Twilight.




            Originally posted by Robert D View Post
            Powers: 2nd edition powers are not called Manifestations (that’s the 2nd Ed. Ephemeral entities abilities now), they are called Haunts. Keys are still a part of powers, but work differently than before (the old way made too many athematic powers and the grid system made adding new powers too difficult in 1st Edition).
            Then he goes on to say this

            Originally posted by Robert D View Post
            Geists: Pretty direct beings. Not big on dissimulation. They are Rank 3+ ghosts. Most gain rank 3+ by drinking deep from one of the rivers of the Underworld. Anchors the ghost to a CONCEPT of death instead of just their old life’s anchors (harder to blast them back to Underworld once they escape, which they may do through a Bargain, by a Gate, or other means. Lost of Geist have no Bargain-host). Exceptions: A) 1st person interred in any cemetery rises as a geist to serve as its guardian. B) Some occult rituals might do the trick, C) sometimes it just happens with no clear cause. Geists CAN use the Claimed Manifestation on a living person or a dead body IF it knows that manifestation. Bargain is a separate manifestation. (ephemeral entities have Twilight Form and a number of additional Manifestations equal to Rank). Geist-claimed ARE NOT THE SAME as Bound. Topic for the future books: Multiple Geists Bargaining with a single Bound. Geist CANNOT possess you, as part of the Bargain. They are also DEFINITELY NOT 100% under the Bound’s control.
            This part is a little confusing as the Geist is still a ghost itself and therefore an Ephemeral Entity I realize that the physical host is not but the Geist should still have Manifestation powers. In Mage they call out a Rank 3 Ghost as a Geist so that matches up. I can only conclude that when a Geist becomes BOUND to a willing recipient that through the Bargain the energies used to activate the manifestation are transformed into the powers called Haunts. Therefore while bonded to the other soul the Geist would lose the abilities of Manifestation. If the bond is broken then everything goes back to being the same. I would also surmise that the Bargain is not a possession but more of a cohabitation or a special melding.

            So addressing what I said above about the Mage looking at it as just another possession, I will revise that to say that the Mage would probably look at it as a soul that was tampered with and not a possession. It looks like the Bargain makes all the difference in this case, changing the Geist and the Host granting powers and abilities in the “Bargain”.

            I think that I am getting a picture of 2e Geist and how they will play with the other supernaturals in the CofD system.

            I see that someone mentioned Numina and I wonder if the bargaining Geist also loses his Numina, as Numina/Manifestation are bargained away for these Haunt powers. I suppose that he Haunt powers could just be an enhanced version of the Numina/Manifestations that a Geist would normally have. The Geist “Melding” with a living, willing, soul has supercharged those abilities, just speculation on my part as I think aloud. The only way to find out is to see when the books come out or if a Dev decides to drop in and comment.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hardwire99 View Post
              Hello, I am new to Geist and I have alot of questions.

              #1) If they come back from the dead are they truly alive? - This was answered but to be complete I added it here.
              #2) If truly alive do they function as any other living being (Heartbeat, Eat, Bodily functions, ETC...)?
              #3) Will their blood sustain a Vampire?
              #4) Do the have their soul and if so does it have marks of death upon it?
              #5) If they have a hitchhiker in a Geist that they have made a deal with can that Geist be separated/pulled way from the living person, and they remain living?
              #6) Can they father a child/get pregnant and if so is their progeny affected by the Geist that inhabits them?
              #7) If living can they be turned into a Vampire or become awakened?

              This is just the beginning and I will have more based upon the answer and how much I learn about the system.
              1) Yes
              2) Yes
              3) Yes
              4) Yes
              5) No
              6) Yes to the first part, no to the second
              7) No


              Travis Stout
              Geist 2e Developer

              Comment


              • #8
                They are still two separate entities correct? Do they have two separate thought patterns, minds, emotions, wants, desires, etc. If someone was able to detect an Ephemeral Entity would they be able to distinguish the Geist from the Person. As an example there are alot of supernatural beings that have the abilities to detect, see and interact with Ghosts and other Ephemeral Entities. Can they directly target the Geist or is the Geist immune to the powers of others while he is held up inside the host. Can the Bargain be ended by another, example a Death Mage has purview over the concept endings, end a spell, end an argument, even end a pact if the spell is strong enough? Can a Mind Mage target just the mind of the Geist and compel it to end the contract? Can a Necromancer Vampire use its abilities to control just the Geist?

                I ask these questions because I intend to start a game of Geist when 2e hits and i want to know how they mesh with the rest of the CofD. And i would also like to add them to the Current Mage game that I am running.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hardwire99 View Post
                  They are still two separate entities correct? Do they have two separate thought patterns, minds, emotions, wants, desires, etc.
                  I'd say yes, since that's the whole point of the Synergy trait. However, they're still fused on a soul-deep level, so I'd expect subtle bleedover. Like how people can have changed personalities after many years or a defining moment. You are still you, but different.

                  If someone was able to detect an Ephemeral Entity would they be able to distinguish the Geist from the Person. As an example there are alot of supernatural beings that have the abilities to detect, see and interact with Ghosts and other Ephemeral Entities. Can they directly target the Geist or is the Geist immune to the powers of others while he is held up inside the host.
                  I'd say immune to detection and interaction while inside the host, and the bundle would look like some weird fusion of ghost and human. This, however, will almost definitely be changed when we get the actual Geist 2E update content spoiled. Till then, your guess is as good as mine.

                  Can the Bargain be ended by another, example a Death Mage has purview over the concept endings, end a spell, end an argument, even end a pact if the spell is strong enough? Can a Mind Mage target just the mind of the Geist and compel it to end the contract? Can a Necromancer Vampire use its abilities to control just the Geist?
                  Nope. No way. Regular mages will never be able to de-template another supernatural being with their powers, or directly create one. The out-of-universe reason is for preventing situations where mages stomp through other people and their gamelines. The in-universe reason is that mages aren't quite all-knowing or all-mighty as they wish to be, and have defined limits to their magic that are often put in place by supernatural forces and entities that are too vast for them to act against, such as Mother Luna or the Principle or the Dark Mother.

                  Unless you consider killing them as a way of ending the Bargain. Then Death Masters can just rip out the Geist and/or the mortal soul.

                  Archmages can de-template others or slap templates on them, but they're explicitly breaking the rules intended for "normal' levels of play. And even then, they still may face repercussions or unintended consequences.

                  I ask these questions because I intend to start a game of Geist when 2e hits and i want to know how they mesh with the rest of the CofD. And i would also like to add them to the Current Mage game that I am running.
                  They mesh as well as other supernaturals already do. From a Mage perspective, they're a not-easily solved Mystery for mages to Obsess over. A player might find it frustrating that they can't toy with other supernatural forces for what it seems to be arbitrarily put restrictions, until they figure out that an out-of-context Mystery that's not easily solved after a few moments of Mage Sight or throwing spells at it is an excellent source of character growth, in the form of Arcane Beats. In fact, that's the in-universe attitude of mages too - when they find a phenomenon that defies their model of reality, their eyes gleam with excitement. (Or fear, whichever comes first.)


                  MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                    They mesh as well as other supernaturals already do. From a Mage perspective, they're a not-easily solved Mystery for mages to Obsess over. A player might find it frustrating that they can't toy with other supernatural forces for what it seems to be arbitrarily put restrictions, until they figure out that an out-of-context Mystery that's not easily solved after a few moments of Mage Sight or throwing spells at it is an excellent source of character growth, in the form of Arcane Beats. In fact, that's the in-universe attitude of mages too - when they find a phenomenon that defies their model of reality, their eyes gleam with excitement. (Or fear, whichever comes first.)
                    Thanks for the answers, this I can work with and it will help to set the stage in the current game without the 2e Geist (still plan on buying it), set it as a mystery that they has to unravel and when the 2e book comes out then let them manipulate the mystery to get a closer look. So in my current game (actually haven't started it yet) I can count this mystery as ready.

                    Really looking forward to the Geist 2e stuff.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                      Nope. No way. Regular mages will never be able to de-template another supernatural being with their powers, or directly create one. The out-of-universe reason is for preventing situations where mages stomp through other people and their gamelines. The in-universe reason is that mages aren't quite all-knowing or all-mighty as they wish to be, and have defined limits to their magic that are often put in place by supernatural forces and entities that are too vast for them to act against, such as Mother Luna or the Principle or the Dark Mother.

                      Unless you consider killing them as a way of ending the Bargain. Then Death Masters can just rip out the Geist and/or the mortal soul.
                      Fun fact, 2e mages can kind of de-template someone with time. If they use (I think) temporal summoning from a time before the creature gained its template, then the creature loses its template for the duration of the spell.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fumus View Post

                        Fun fact, 2e mages can kind of de-template someone with time. If they use (I think) temporal summoning from a time before the creature gained its template, then the creature loses its template for the duration of the spell.
                        I'm pretty sure Temporal Summoning has two restrictions - it cannot bring the dead back to life, or undo supernatural transformation. It only changes the subject physically, so you can only do things like make an adult corpse into a child corpse, or make a vampire physically younger (which is itself quite a feat, but I digress)

                        On the another hand, I just browsed through and found that another spell, Rewrite History, actually can undo even template transformation with its +2 Reach option. Make its Duration indefinite, and hope no one comes to dispel it or something.


                        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So then Mages do have the ability to de-template someone with an Unmaking spell. So I would also put an ending spell from death in that same category if it targets the Bargain.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                            I'm pretty sure Temporal Summoning has two restrictions - it cannot bring the dead back to life, or undo supernatural transformation. It only changes the subject physically, so you can only do things like make an adult corpse into a child corpse, or make a vampire physically younger (which is itself quite a feat, but I digress)

                            On the another hand, I just browsed through and found that another spell, Rewrite History, actually can undo even template transformation with its +2 Reach option. Make its Duration indefinite, and hope no one comes to dispel it or something.

                            I think temporal summoning is still able to do it, I don't read physical-changes-only into the spell at all, the fact that it brings the dead back to life implies that it does more than just revert the physical form. But either way my point was that mages can indeed "temporarily" erase any template that is gained later in life rather than being born/made with it, it's just a lot more fragile and prone to being dispelled than a lasting destruction of a template (like what archmasters can presumably do).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hardwire99 View Post
                              So then Mages do have the ability to de-template someone with an Unmaking spell. So I would also put an ending spell from death in that same category if it targets the Bargain.

                              No, short of archmastery-level magic mages cannot alter or remove major supernatural templates. Temporal Summoning can temporarily replace someone with a past version of themselves from before they were altered, and Rewrite History can temporarily alter the past so that they never got a template in the first place, but that's not the same as removing a major template.


                              Travis Stout
                              Geist 2e Developer

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