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  • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    Yes, but that is not the issue. The issue is people are comparing creating a Momento in play vs purchasing one with/as a merit and the later is objectively* a better option.
    This is just a reversal of the usual trend where the merits were horrifically devalued compared to acquiring a Gadget/Grimoire/Artifact/Fetish etc in play.

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    • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

      Yes, but that is not the issue. The issue is people are comparing creating a Momento in play vs purchasing one with/as a merit and the later is objectively* a better option.

      The issue has little to do with the ease of gaining Synergy, because a good Sin-Eater engaging in their own story should be trying to gain Synergy a lot. Compelling crisis points by conflicting the desires of the Bound and their geist should also be a frequently used way to lose said Synergy. That back and forth is the whole point until resolution is archived.

      Now the creation rules might be intended to prevent mass production of Momentos for krewe mates; So every Key belonging to the group is not availible to every member.

      *The merit soes not obey the limitation (which are noted as being flavourful) inheirent to the crafting process; you can aquire different keys with the merit (you can only create Momentos that share your inheirent keys). It cost less experience. It does not take as long to get ingame either.
      This is a bit of a white room scenario, but if a player stays with shaving half their starting Merit dots to start at Synergy 2, and then crafts a Memento of their own, tey’re explicitely worse off than if they’d simply started with the Memento merit at character creation. They’d have the same amount of free reign in making the Memento, unless the ST was very limiting, but they’d still have two extra merit dots and it could be of a Key they otherwise don’t have access to.

      Honestly, the only advantage to crafting a Memento I can see is that you can choose what it is, have a choice over what benefit it has, and it will most likely have a Key that resonates with a strong attribute you have so you can reliably get a good amount of Plasm per Doom. Just finding Mementos through play/the merit are less likely to have desired efects or Keys tha resonate with a favored attribute.

      I do appreciate the thought that a Synergy cost would be a way to curtail a Krewe simply crafting enough Mementos to have the entire spectrum. The problem with that is, again, purchasing the merit doesn’t follow that limitation beyond how they have the merit.

      Here’s another concern; should a player craft a Memento, but they otherwise get the merit for free just as a way to account for the Memento. What would happen if that Memento were stolen, or otherwise permanently put out of the player’s hands through no fault of their own beyond not making it harder to be lost in such a manner? They didn’t pay experience for the merit, so Sanctity Of Merits doesn’t apply...but they paid for it with Synergy, which may or may not have been paid for with long earned beats. How would you cover the disparity there?

      Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
      This is just a reversal of the usual trend where the merits were horrifically devalued compared to acquiring a Gadget/Grimoire/Artifact/Fetish etc in play.
      It’s quite the disparity, given that most of those only require between 1-5 experiences to craft yourself or, in a Demon’s case, a Willpower dot that is replaced with an experience. Mementos require Synergy, which requires 5 experiences to raise manually. It’s a weird tradeoff.
      Last edited by Taidragon; 08-06-2018, 02:17 PM.

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      • The smart move for an absent is to claim a human.

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        • Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
          The smart move for an absent is to claim a human.
          Kind of depends on what the Absent wants to do, plus if they have the manifestations for it.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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          • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
            It’s quite the disparity, given that most of those only require between 1-5 experiences to craft yourself or, in a Demon’s case, a Willpower dot that is replaced with an experience. Mementos require Synergy, which requires 5 experiences to raise manually. It’s a weird tradeoff.
            How much of this problem remains if the cost of the Merit is bumped up to five dots?


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            • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              How much of this problem remains if the cost of the Merit is bumped up to five dots?
              Greatly reduced but not completely; the lack of Sanctity is a big pain and there will always be those who complain about the limitation of the crafting process. On the whole, I think it would help a great deal. I don't think they feel like 5 dot merits though.


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              • Personally, I'd just be in favor of some smallish perk for Vanitas - would something like the 1E ability to summon you Keystone Memento fit?


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                • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                  Greatly reduced but not completely; the lack of Sanctity is a big pain and there will always be those who complain about the limitation of the crafting process. On the whole, I think it would help a great deal. I don't think they feel like 5 dot merits though.
                  The weird thing is, a Memento is in certain respects and for certain purposes better than a dot of Synergy.

                  2e Geist's power structure is set up differently to, say, Vampire and Changeling, where the drawbacks of your condition start out easily manageable and gradually escalate with your power — the downsides of Synergy are instead front-loaded and remedied through either increasing your rating or dealing with separate elements that also raise your rating, and that combined with the lack of a separate Integrity analog means the power structure has allowances for "weak" veteran characters built into it in the form of Mementos and stolen Keys and progress along your geist's Remembrance.

                  When it comes to Haunts, a dot of Synergy gives you an extra die, a better rate and capacity for spending Plasm, and a one-level bump to a few effects' numbers. That's the full extent of its impact on the things Mementos help with.

                  A Memento, meanwhile, adds at least one die (and most likely two or more), gives you free Plasm that ignores the limits of capacity and rate, and potentially makes you more likely to get a refund on some of the Plasm you spent (even if it's Plasm that you didn't have until you used the Memento).

                  Also, it's important not to sell duplicating one of your innate Keys short — you can't unlock a Haunt with more than one Key at a time, and you can explicitly push the free Plasm from multiples of the same Key through a given Haunt. (The debatably-minor occult power doesn't hurt, either.)


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    The weird thing is, a Memento is in certain respects and for certain purposes better than a dot of Synergy.
                    ...
                    I have to admit, I hadn't thought of all that before this point. It makes sense, and it does fit in with the limitation that making a new Memento has to be with your innate keys. It helps that the ability to downgrade damage via Plasm is unaffected by Synergy, so having multiple means of getting plasm is useful (though the ensuing Dooms may not be).

                    However, increasing the cost of the merit from 3 to 5 experiences is...not exactly helping with the problem? All that means is that Mementos now cost even more to get on your character sheet, and 3 experiences isn't a light purchase as it is, much less 5.

                    I don't know. Maybe I'm just the old man shouting at clouds for being over his lawn.

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                    • Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
                      However, increasing the cost of the merit from 3 to 5 experiences is...not exactly helping with the problem? All that means is that Mementos now cost even more to get on your character sheet, and 3 experiences isn't a light purchase as it is, much less 5.
                      They aren't exactly trivial objects in the first place, particularly not in a game that introduced "breaking points involving a magical item can give their subjects the Obsessed Condition" and whose core societal mechanics are premised around Mystery Cult Initiation, the Merit whose minimal design notes include "every one of these has a centering relic."

                      Remember that the other means of getting these things consistently instead of relying on blind luck are "bind a ghost into its own Anchor using a five-dot Ceremony" or "destroy a geist."


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                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        They aren't exactly trivial objects in the first place, particularly not in a game that introduced "breaking points involving a magical item can give their subjects the Obsessed Condition" and whose core societal mechanics are premised around Mystery Cult Initiation, the Merit whose minimal design notes include "every one of these has a centering relic."

                        Remember that the other means of getting these things consistently instead of relying on blind luck are "bind a ghost into its own Anchor using a five-dot Ceremony" or "destroy a geist."
                        Most of us are accustomed to Magical Items being less valuable than dots of Supernatural Tolerance/ Integrity, which is likely where the perceived disparity comes from.

                        To me, it seems Mementos are less closer to fetishes, Imbued Items etc (the “utility items”) and more closer to Athanors, Taliamans etc (the “milestone items”). That’d explain the opportunity cost in producing them.
                        Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-07-2018, 04:13 AM.


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                        • Some thoughts about Tyranny based Bound lacking proper name- do you think that "Sacrosanct" would work better as their nickname (taking inspiration from 1e), or could it be used for a new Krewe Archetype? I assume that Wretched (the proper 1e term for Synergy 0 Bound) also works, but it sounds to me more like how Sin Eaters would call such Bound, and not how those Bound would call themselves.


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                          • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Some thoughts about Tyranny based Bound lacking proper name- do you think that "Sacrosanct" would work better as their nickname (taking inspiration from 1e), or could it be used for a new Krewe Archetype? I assume that Wretched (the proper 1e term for Synergy 0 Bound) also works, but it sounds to me more like how Sin Eaters would call such Bound, and not how those Bound would call themselves.
                            I can work with that.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                              Some thoughts about Tyranny based Bound lacking proper name- do you think that "Sacrosanct" would work better as their nickname (taking inspiration from 1e), or could it be used for a new Krewe Archetype? I assume that Wretched (the proper 1e term for Synergy 0 Bound) also works, but it sounds to me more like how Sin Eaters would call such Bound, and not how those Bound would call themselves.
                              Both could work; they call themselves Sacrosanct because they see their own will and individuality, well, sacrosanct. They think they know better and are worth more than other people. They’re called the Wretched by Sin-Eaters because first they’re deplorable, and because Sin-Eaters see even them as people who were broken by a bad day and can be turned back.


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                              • Wouldn't Tyrants be an appropriate name? I mean I'm not apposed to Sacrosanct but I've just been calling them Tyrants.

                                Edit: Now that I think about it, I think that most of them just call themselves Bound and don't differentiate themselves with other Bound. Though I'm sure Sin-Eaters have a myriad names for them.
                                Last edited by xiongrey; 08-07-2018, 06:47 PM.



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