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Geist Kickstarter Discussion Thread

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  • Second Chances
    started a topic Geist Kickstarter Discussion Thread

    Geist Kickstarter Discussion Thread

    It is time for a second chance! The Geist: the Sin-Eater Kickstarter is coming on Monday July 2 at noon EDT. Talk about it here.

    Beware the ghosts bearing masks.

    Link
    Last edited by Second Chances; 07-02-2018, 12:04 PM.

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    EDIT: Nope.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    I believe what they do now is half on contract then half on publication. I could be wrong (and I think it's a newer thing, so Geist's writers might not be handled in it, though the Geist KS was just under a year ago) but it seems like a fairer medium for both parties considering the back and forth. While a lot of freelancing is payment on contract or submission, that tends to be more one-and-done things, writing an article for a magazine or something. Unfortunately the publishing business still has people buying work and sitting on them or buying rights and selling them off leaving writers unpublished and unknown.
    Last edited by nofather; 06-02-2019, 01:33 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    When it comes to projects that have already been mostly or fully funded beforehand (as with Kickstarters) why not divide the payment over time? I get that freelancers don't get paid until after their work is done (due to the nature of that kind of employment) but if you've written something and sent it in for review and editing and it passes, shouldn't part of your assignment already be completed? Yes, there can be additional revisions later, and if doing those are part of the contract the company could gate part of the payment until the final product is ready.
    Cons for the company: They can no longer scrap someone's work and not pay them after the most substantial work is completed (something that is a horrible business practice regardless, and should be blocked in the contract).
    Pros for the company: Having part of the payment paid earlier means it's much more feasible for the writer to work on the project during working hours and not having to do it in addition to additional jobs that pay for their current needs. It means they can potentially work faster and be hired more quickly for other projects.

    That bad or unethical business practices might be standard in a business does not mean companies are exempt from criticism for those practices. Also, just because a bad practice pales in comparison to other problems in the business does not mean it should not be discussed or criticised.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Octavo View Post
    We were specifically talking about Olivia Hill's contention that she hasn't gotten paid for work she turned in to OPP years ago.
    I was specifically talking about writing and publishing from a freelance perspective.

    I kinda think they're not calling Olivia Hill back to get her to do any more work on the project. Delaying payment until publication is barbaric, and now the definition of "publication" is being whittled away at to mean something other than customers being delivered the product they bought.
    The definition of publication is the same it always was. Made for public sale.

    I have to wonder: why are you taking the bosses' side? Workers getting screwed by cruel industry practices is degrading the hobby.
    Because my hobby as an evil billionaire is posting on random forums to stomp on the 99%./s

    As far as I know the 'boss' hasn't posted here. But as someone who buys OPP books, I think the idea that they are barbaric and cruel for using payment on publication is a drastic overexaggeration, just like your statement regarding people 'whittling away the definition of publication.' While I do believe writers and developers deserve more pay (I don't know about artists but it might draw more), I think business practices from small company owners are maybe a quarter of the many issue degrading the hobby.

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  • Octavo
    replied
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
    But it does matter.

    Otherwise, why single out OPP specifically? Especially since there are plenty of other TRPG companies that have done far worse and whose freelancers are more tight-lipped about.
    Because I mainly buy OPP books.

    Leave a comment:


  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by Octavo View Post
    Who cares if it's an industry practice if it's exploitative?
    But it does matter.

    Otherwise, why single out OPP specifically? Especially since there are plenty of other TRPG companies that have done far worse and whose freelancers are more tight-lipped about.

    (hai Catalyst Game Labs)

    Originally posted by Octavo View Post
    I kinda think they're not calling Olivia Hill back to get her to do any more work on the project.
    ...because she effectively cut all ties with OPP? And my impression being, even if OPP did decide to apologize, she doesn't want to work with OPP ever again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Octavo
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post

    It hasn't been published yet. Though I think writers get half on sign up, then half on publish.

    We're specifically talking about it not being 'accepted work' yet. The book isn't released, though I imagine it's close. You don't see an issue with 'We'll pay you this much for your work, but if you do anything wrong, we'll pay you extra to fix it'?
    We were specifically talking about Olivia Hill's contention that she hasn't gotten paid for work she turned in to OPP years ago.

    I kinda think they're not calling Olivia Hill back to get her to do any more work on the project. Delaying payment until publication is barbaric, and now the definition of "publication" is being whittled away at to mean something other than customers being delivered the product they bought. I have to wonder: why are you taking the bosses' side? Workers getting screwed by cruel industry practices is degrading the hobby.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Octavo View Post
    Pay on pub (or in this case, pay long after pub) is not a good way to treat writers. It's not a good way to treat workers.
    It hasn't been published yet. Though I think writers get half on sign up, then half on publish.

    Even if we were talking about editors or developers and not writers, this isn't a great point. If work is accepted and later needs to be changed, then the publisher should be paying extra if they want previously contracted writers to modify the work.
    We're specifically talking about it not being 'accepted work' yet. The book isn't released, though I imagine it's close. You don't see an issue with 'We'll pay you this much for your work, but if you do anything wrong, we'll pay you extra to fix it'?
    Last edited by nofather; 06-02-2019, 01:15 AM.

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  • Octavo
    replied
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    Well hold on:

    Is this not how the industry does payment? Do we have any solid and decisive reason to believe otherwise?
    Who cares if it's an industry practice if it's exploitative?

    Pay on pub (or in this case, pay long after pub) is not a good way to treat writers. It's not a good way to treat workers.

    I've worked some truly shitty jobs in depressing call centers, but I never had to wait years for payment.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post

    Sure. But if there's a section that needs to be fixed, then they may need further work to do on the project. So they have no further work to do once it's published and aren't obligated to do any work for it, or come on the forum an answer questions or put out a 1.1 edition.

    For an example, in the Beast Ready Made Characters booklet, there was a piece of art that depicted a nude (though not detailed) woman, but the description of her had her as underage. This wasn't caught until the errata section. If they were 'let go' before the errata, before publication, then you're stuck with it or you just have to shell out more money to get someone to fix it. And we've seen the errata threads, it isn't just a matter of 'it says plil when it should say pill' some of them require more work involved than a spellcheck.

    The alternative is something like the original Geist. It's always possible a book is going to be so full of mistakes that they need to hire new people to redo it or scrap it altogether, pay for two sets of writers to put out one book.
    Even if we were talking about editors or developers and not writers, this isn't a great point. If work is accepted and later needs to be changed, then the publisher should be paying extra if they want previously contracted writers to modify the work.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Octavo View Post
    There's no good reason to delay payment to the writers, who have no further work to do on this project.
    Sure. But if there's a section that needs to be fixed, then they may need further work to do on the project. So they have no further work to do once it's published and aren't obligated to do any work for it, or come on the forum an answer questions or put out a 1.1 edition.

    For an example, in the Beast Ready Made Characters booklet, there was a piece of art that depicted a nude (though not detailed) woman, but the description of her had her as underage. This wasn't caught until the errata section. If they were 'let go' before the errata, before publication, then you're stuck with it or you just have to shell out more money to get someone to fix it. And we've seen the errata threads, it isn't just a matter of 'it says plil when it should say pill' some of them require more work involved than a spellcheck.

    The alternative is something like the original Geist. It's always possible a book is going to be so full of mistakes that they need to hire new people to redo it or scrap it altogether, pay for two sets of writers to put out one book.

    Leave a comment:


  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by Octavo View Post

    There's no good reason to delay payment to the writers, who have no further work to do on this project.
    Well hold on:

    Is this not how the industry does payment? Do we have any solid and decisive reason to believe otherwise?

    Leave a comment:


  • Octavo
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post

    Because it's still in pre-release and so still might need new writing or art.

    I believe a developer has said the last payments (to the developer) go out when the errata is finished. Presumably writers get it the same, or half if they signed on with half up front.
    There's no good reason to delay payment to the writers, who have no further work to do on this project.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
    There’s a very valid point made in the replies, though; if backers paid for it ages ago, that payment reached the company, and backers have already received pretty close to the final text, it’s sort of a kick in the shorts that the writers are the last people to receive their share of this entire process.
    Because it's still in pre-release and so still might need new writing or art.

    I believe a developer has said the last payments (to the developer) go out when the errata is finished. Presumably writers get it the same, or half if they signed on with half up front.

    Leave a comment:


  • Octavo
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
    It is concerning...but hopefully everyone will get what is due soon?
    I hope so too. Seeing stuff like this makes it hard to keep buying OPP games, esp if they've been kickstarted. Can't imagine waiting years for payment.

    Leave a comment:

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