Originally posted by Michael
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The Ghost of Theseus Problem
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Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
Feminine pronouns, please.
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Someone has a car crash, is in a coma for a month and in a wheelchair for the rest of their life - a ghost of them appears during the crash, and haunts their living counterpart's bedside.
Ten years later, the person dies of cancer.
The two ghosts meet. Which one of them is the real person?
Neither in one sense (they're both copies) the older ghost in another sense (they have continuity of conciousness, while the comatose one didn't) the younger ghost in another (they're the closest to the living person) and both in another (they're both different versions of them).
The book mentions it because we knew the metaphysical quirk of the CofD setting that allows for ghosts of living people, ghost buildings, etc means characters in the setting who are reasonably knowledgable about ghosts will have wrestled with this kind of conundrum. Sin-Eaters come firmly down on the side of "it doesn't matter, ghosts are thinking, emoting, self aware beings, ergo they're people," but this kind of thing allows room for antagonists to believe they aren't harming real people when they abuse the dead.
It absolutely has the potential to reduce sympathy for ghosts - that's the *point*, that Sin-Eater culture has sympathy for ghosts *anyway*.Last edited by Dave Brookshaw; 07-04-2018, 05:48 AM.
Dave Brookshaw
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Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View PostThe book mentions it because we knew the metaphysical quirk of the CofD setting that allows for ghosts of living people, ghost buildings, etc means characters in the setting who are reasonably knowledgable about ghosts will have wrestled with this kind of conundrum. Sin-Eaters come firmly down on the side of "it doesn't matter, ghosts are thinking, emoting, self aware beings, ergo they're people," but this kind of thing allows room for antagonists to believe they aren't harming real people when they abuse the dead.
It absolutely has the potential to resuce sympathy for ghosts - that's the *point*, that Sin-Eater culture has sympathy for ghosts *anyway*.
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Originally posted by Second Chances View PostGods I love this game.
Also, credit where it's due, because these 2nd Editions keep breathing new life and power in these games in such a way the best cinematographic equivalent I could think of is the scene in the first Matrix where Trinity helps Neo resurrect and he proceeds to kick ass. I mean, I was always fond of Geist and had fun writing about it, but the game is back, improved and ready to usher in all sorts of ghostly goodness in the CoD as a whole.
I'm both impressed and glad that I paused some things I was working on in order to write them with the new GeistLast edited by Cinder; 07-04-2018, 04:31 AM.
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Originally posted by Michael View PostThat's the essential mistake the Ship of Theseus critiques. You're just stating that certain elements of identity are essential without actually justifying it.Or, they both have a legitimate claim on that originality.
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Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
The book mentions it because we knew the metaphysical quirk of the CofD setting that allows for ghosts of living people, ghost buildings, etc means characters in the setting who are reasonably knowledgable about ghosts will have wrestled with this kind of conundrum. Sin-Eaters come firmly down on the side of "it doesn't matter, ghosts are thinking, emoting, self aware beings, ergo they're people," but this kind of thing allows room for antagonists to believe they aren't harming real people when they abuse the dead.
It absolutely has the potential to reduce sympathy for ghosts - that's the *point*, that Sin-Eater culture has sympathy for ghosts *anyway*.
You can never have too much crossover...Last edited by branford; 07-04-2018, 03:11 PM.
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Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View PostIt absolutely has the potential to reduce sympathy for ghosts - that's the *point*, that Sin-Eater culture has sympathy for ghosts *anyway*.
It also makes me think of a scenario where someone eaten up enough with something to cause a ghost has a near-death experience - but as a result, they realise that life is too short and move on. However they also leave a ghost behind, which retains the full obsession - and now regards their living counterpart as betraying the core (as the ghost sees it) of themselves.
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Originally posted by xiongrey View PostYou know, I've asked myself this question a lot, albeit in a different format. It is all based on the original philosophical question of course. But still.
What if you were to step into a machine that would create another you. a la The Prestige (movie not the book). No matter which one you are, both are not in the original physical location as you were before turning on the machine so it's ambiguous who the "original" person is.
The question is: What would you do. Would you demand they die? That they go away and take other names and lives? Who has more right to the life you now live? Would you demand they do things for you so that you don't have to? The question is interesting because no matter what answer you give, the other one is likely to feel the same.
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Originally posted by itokro View Post
Something of a digression, but this also reads like an excellent summary of the issues surrounding fetches in Changeling: the Lost. I'm over here taking notes for my next CtL campaign, and wondering about crossover potential...
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Originally posted by Leliel View Post
In fact, in my games, it's canon a fetch is a Doppleganger who has been artificially made and repurposed with her own trash-body. That's why Gentry need to abduct people before they can copy them; the trauma of being kidnapped by alien slavers is necessary to spin off a ghost, and that forming ghost is caught and put into a body; the ghost of what could have been.
Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."
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Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
Ghost or Hedge Ghost? Because that can have an impact regarding what powers work with/on them.
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They're people, and their thoughts and feelings are valid, but that doesn't naturally mean people will perceive them as the same person if they know how ghosts work.
Like, lets say your married but than you die. Now, your spouse knows a little bit about the occult, and one of the few nuggets they know is how ghosts are created. This could cause them to have a negative reaction to the ghost. This isn't a bad plothook for a story, so it isn't a problem per se, but I think people don't properly consider the issue from the perspective of the ghost's loved ones.
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