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[2E Hack] Archetypes as Y-Splats, not Krewe

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic [2E Hack] Archetypes as Y-Splats, not Krewe

    [2E Hack] Archetypes as Y-Splats, not Krewe

    So I like variety in my players groups and I do not see need to dedicate them all to only one theme in Archetypes - I have idea of really small hack for Geist 2E . Instead of idea for whole players groups - Archetypes are more like other Y-Splats of other gamelines, like Covenants in VtR ( Circle of Crone, Invictus, Lancea Sanctum, etc. ), Tribes in WtF( Iron Masters, Hunters in Darkness, Predators Kings, etc. ) or Refinements in Promethean ( Aurum, Coprum, Argentum, etc. ). Probably mostly like mix of Tribes and Refinements as Archetypes of Geist are all about 'what should I make with Underworld and Dead' for particular character, in general.

    Would change like this make really big repercussions in 2E ( at least previewed now )? Cause for now I see official Archetypes as 'you must all play the same story in Krewe'.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-26-2019, 08:21 AM.

  • xiongrey
    replied
    Yeah I think that Archetypes just don't do enough to merit each char having their own archetype. I still think that, if you wanted extra variation and choice (related to the Krewe) I'd go with something similar to either Doctrines and/or a separate set of Aspirations (or combine those) that have special benefits for completing/acting along the lines of (like maybe some sort of underworld awakening causing ceremonies to be learned or... what have you).

    If your goal is to add more char personalization, I am not sure divorcing Archetype from the Krewe would serve your goal and I think it would hurt the Krewe creation. Instead I'd go with something like the above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leliel
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Okay, first, use line breaks.

    Second, "there's an early 1e book with characters from the gameline where the political axis denotes semi-philosophical divisions between the self-appointed stewards of the ever-changing mirror-world, each branch of which is hundreds to thousands of years old and sponsored by an immortal thematic godling who doesn't exclusively live over an acid pit to oblivion, and characters from those divisions can share membership in the spiritual subgrouping with the most local concern and lowest impact on its members outside of one major structural taboo" is not an argument for the splat full of temporary people joined with temporary ghosts forming cults with a lifespan measured in decades to deal with the ever-draining sinkhole below the world.

    Third, Krewe Archetypes aren't "your krewe deals with the ghosts of homeless people," they're "your krewe deals with seeking justice for the dead" or "your krewe deals with altering the place of the dead in society" or "your krewe deals with the things that ghosts tend to form around." Particulars like how to deal with the homeless is the domain of Doctrines, which can and will change over the course of play as your characters' fledgeling religious institution grows, adapts, and sheds splinter factions. None of this is "PCs are limited to one specific focus."

    Fourth, geists don't have Archetypes. There is zero chance that all the geists in a city will share the same Archetype, because Archetype in 2e is a description of a type of cult. Characters can lean into the broad category of their Krewe Archetype for the benefits it affords them, but that niche exists largely independent of a character's Burden, Remembrance, and Touchstones. The krewe gives PCs something in common to work on in a game where they have a wealth of personal projects to balance it with.

    Fifth, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Archetypes work here; they're five general types of krewe that have ideologies that provoke Sin-Eater as opposed to plain Bound sentiments - which makes the krewe into something both ostensibly likable and active as opposed to passive. The five "dark archetypes" only have one that is really explicitly evil (the Elysians), all the others are fairly playable but do not have a focus on all parts of the game world. Thanatologists don't actually believe in Cartharsis or Catabasis, Gatekeepers don't want to reform the Underworld, Bonepickers stay the hell away from ghosts to begin with. Those who do end up qualifying for one of the different Sin-Eater archetypes (Mourners, Pilgrims, and Necropolitans, respectively). The biggest crunch it effects is the three beginning Ceremonies, nothing else.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Shadowdragon View Post
    I see a lot of people saying that krewes in Geist should have group archetypes and doctrines and stuff so the krewe can have a unified focus. In the Chicago city book there are a number of werewolf packs. Each one has a specific focus (clean up the river, help the homeless, fight fire spirits, etc) but the packs all contain werewolves from different tribes. This shows that it is possible to have a krewe with a specific focus where the members deal with that focus in different ways ( by being different archetypes). A given focus may attract members of specific archetypes, but it shouldn't say "only members of this particular archetype can be included". Also, this is all great for NPC krewes, but PC krewes should be different. PC krewes should never be limited to one specific focus. It would be like saying "for this chronicle your characters will only be dealing with the ghosts of murdered homeless people". That's just silly. It should be more like "your characters will be dealing with troublesome ghosts in the city. You each have your own reasons for doing so, and your own way of dealing with them. Your diversity is what's you better than the NPC krewes that only focus on one specific area (if any other krewes even exist in the city)". I mean, by my understanding, geists are pretty rare, and it's unlikely that a city will have more than 1-2 krewes in it. The chances that all the geists in the city share the same archetype is highly unlikely. It's more likely that each is different and they come together for mutual support, and so their different skills can cover each other's weaknesses. Anyway, tldr version: I really don't like the krewe creation rules as they stand. They limit both character creation and chronicle creation WAY too much. If they stay as they are I'll be doing extensive house ruling to eliminate them in their entirety. hopefully the final book will have something in it that allows for the creating of mixed archetype krewes with more open doctrines.
    Okay, first, use line breaks.

    Second, "there's an early 1e book with characters from the gameline where the political axis denotes semi-philosophical divisions between the self-appointed stewards of the ever-changing mirror-world, each branch of which is hundreds to thousands of years old and sponsored by an immortal thematic godling who doesn't exclusively live over an acid pit to oblivion, and characters from those divisions can share membership in the spiritual subgrouping with the most local concern and lowest impact on its members outside of one major structural taboo" is not an argument for the splat full of temporary people joined with temporary ghosts forming cults with a lifespan measured in decades to deal with the ever-draining sinkhole below the world.

    Third, Krewe Archetypes aren't "your krewe deals with the ghosts of homeless people," they're "your krewe deals with seeking justice for the dead" or "your krewe deals with altering the place of the dead in society" or "your krewe deals with the things that ghosts tend to form around." Particulars like how to deal with the homeless is the domain of Doctrines, which can and will change over the course of play as your characters' fledgeling religious institution grows, adapts, and sheds splinter factions. None of this is "PCs are limited to one specific focus."

    Fourth, geists don't have Archetypes. There is zero chance that all the geists in a city will share the same Archetype, because Archetype in 2e is a description of a type of cult. Characters can lean into the broad category of their Krewe Archetype for the benefits it affords them, but that niche exists largely independent of a character's Burden, Remembrance, and Touchstones. The krewe gives PCs something in common to work on in a game where they have a wealth of personal projects to balance it with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shadowdragon
    replied
    I see a lot of people saying that krewes in Geist should have group archetypes and doctrines and stuff so the krewe can have a unified focus. In the Chicago city book there are a number of werewolf packs. Each one has a specific focus (clean up the river, help the homeless, fight fire spirits, etc) but the packs all contain werewolves from different tribes. This shows that it is possible to have a krewe with a specific focus where the members deal with that focus in different ways ( by being different archetypes). A given focus may attract members of specific archetypes, but it shouldn't say "only members of this particular archetype can be included". Also, this is all great for NPC krewes, but PC krewes should be different. PC krewes should never be limited to one specific focus. It would be like saying "for this chronicle your characters will only be dealing with the ghosts of murdered homeless people". That's just silly. It should be more like "your characters will be dealing with troublesome ghosts in the city. You each have your own reasons for doing so, and your own way of dealing with them. Your diversity is what's you better than the NPC krewes that only focus on one specific area (if any other krewes even exist in the city)". I mean, by my understanding, geists are pretty rare, and it's unlikely that a city will have more than 1-2 krewes in it. The chances that all the geists in the city share the same archetype is highly unlikely. It's more likely that each is different and they come together for mutual support, and so their different skills can cover each other's weaknesses. Anyway, tldr version: I really don't like the krewe creation rules as they stand. They limit both character creation and chronicle creation WAY too much. If they stay as they are I'll be doing extensive house ruling to eliminate them in their entirety. hopefully the final book will have something in it that allows for the creating of mixed archetype krewes with more open doctrines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    You probably mention something related to Ceremonies rules - Could you point me at least to Preview PDF page number? I read 'jumping over' sections of Preview, as not having time to digest whole game at once, right now.
    It's the rule you're already familiar with. The krewe gets three Ceremonies at three dot levels.

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Hack implications - Logical is that IF Krewe is composed of members from Archetypes A, B and C - they can choose Ceremonies from lists from Archetypes A, B and C.They just choose ONE Ceremony for each dot level for whole Krewe. Done!
    How do you determine which ceremonies to pick if you have more than 3 players? Then you end up with one or more players who doesn't get to choose a krewe Ceremony. And how do you determine what dot level each player gets to choose? If you work off of a sinlge krewe Archetype instead you already get the full list of the most relevant Ceremonies.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    With your suggestion the characters influence the Ceremonies of the krewe. Do they get anything else?
    As Archetypes are - generally - system agnostic as the are, no, players just choose their individual subfaction for polishing character and what they want to do with Underworld. Nothing more. More I think about it - it's a bit bummer that Archetypes do only this in RAW game - they get Krewe Doctrine general and few Ceremonies. That's it.

    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Rules as written there's nothing that stops a character from fulfilling Archetypes as an individual. Whether you write down the Archetype on the character sheet or not doesn't change your character.
    You are right - but I like to write things down. That's why I make char sheets with Mr Gone, in first place. I also observe it's MUCH EASIER for player to make character looking over 5 typical Archetypes - than making everything himself from ground-up. Especially for new players.

    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    And since your suggestion still only mechanically affects the krewe, why remove Archetypes from krewes? They're a good starting point for the group when figuring out the krewe's Doctrines.
    This is... really good point. Choosing 'general Archetype' of Krewe ( probably the most represented in made PCs ) as starting point for Doctrine and Ceremonies is good idea here. I would just make that after initial step, players talk over if other Archetypes should not swap Doctrine and Ceremonies for the Krewe.

    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    You also ignored my question about how to decide on Ceremonies when not having three Bound in a krewe.
    You probably mention something related to Ceremonies rules - Could you point me at least to Preview PDF page number? I read 'jumping over' sections of Preview, as not having time to digest whole game at once, right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Krewe really needs defined Archetype in the first place? From what I see in Geist 2E preview rules, on day-to-day level, Krewes works just likes Packs in Werewolf - you and your friends find specific Krewes general idea that is STILL much more specific than one Tribe/Archetype in game. Gangs, cults, helping groups, etc. Krewes can have bold statement about Underworld - but so do Packs in Werewolf, for example. And on day-to-day running, you simply do not see often single Tribe Packs in play.
    I think you misunderstood me. With your suggestion the characters influence the Ceremonies of the krewe. Do they get anything else? Rules as written there's nothing that stops a character from fulfilling Archetypes as an individual. Whether you write down the Archetype on the character sheet or not doesn't change your character.
    And since your suggestion still only mechanically affects the krewe, why remove Archetypes from krewes? They're a good starting point for the group when figuring out the krewe's Doctrines.
    You also ignored my question about how to decide on Ceremonies when not having three Bound in a krewe.

    Leave a comment:


  • xiongrey
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    ...Geist is a pretty busy game, creation wise...
    I agree with Arc for the most part.

    Currently you are:

    Creating And Playing (for the most part)
    - 1 full Sin-eater (with different anchors, burdens, and merits to set them apart from others)
    - 1 full Geist (although I think some of the background details the ST comes up with similar to a Demon's Keys/final truth) (with separate keys and rememberences to set them apart from other geists)
    - (alternatively to the above: 1 Full Ghost PC)

    Creating (but not neccessarily playing)
    - 1 important dead npc (with simplified anchors and merits)
    - 2+ important alive npcs (with simplified anchors and merits)

    ^already that's a lot to make that also makes your char pretty different.

    Then together with other players you create:
    - A full crew archetype (complete with traits, doctrines, ceremonies/merits, Regalia)


    The fact that the 3 doctrines, which are pretty closely tied to the archetype, are what shape what a Krewe does collectively help the archetype itself. (Keep in mind that the archetype and doctrines are shaped collectively by all players at Char Creation so it should be extremely personalized to your players).

    As a side note: the rules have a pretty cool thing for a Krewe that has members (important or not members) which start to act in ways that are not tied to the Doctrines: Heresy. Which can start to replace the doctrines with Heresy doctrines further customizing the Krewe to your group.


    ~~~~~~~

    That Said: I'm a pretty big believer in hacking and customizing to fit the players and the desires of the story.

    So I don't really see a need to make Archetype a player-to-player thing. Instead, what if you did away with Archetypes and had each player come-up with a Krewe Doctrine that represents their view of the Krewe itself and where it's going. (to a minimum of 3 doctrines and a maximum equal to the amount of players). You could add extra benefits from Krewe actions that align with one doctrine or another.

    It's not exactly analogous to a y-splat but it does give players something within the Krewe to separate themselves with the others if need be. That way doctrines are one half socia-political splat and one half Root/Vine equivalent.

    ~~~~~~~

    Personally I like how it is in the book already but the above would be my way to hack it to achieve what you might want.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    One thing to consider in the comparison to Packs is that, while you are not wrong with them being related, Krewe Archetypes resolve a problem that happens in Werewolf, namely "What is the pack working for?" The dedication to the hunt clarifies a lot of their "What do" questions, but in getting into the political intrigue of territories and action outside of the hunt, it's still rather too easy for players to not actually have an ambition to fulfill, mostly because they lack direction. Krewe Archetypes for the player group gives an answer to that while keeping it flexible enough for players to decide how it specifically incarnates.

    If you want to posit another line of splats which designate more variety then just what the Burdens offer, you are welcome to think it up and create incentives for it, but you are ignoring a great deal of what the current model already offers simply because you seem to have an issue with everyone being on the same page.

    Also, on the variety front, have you considered the fact that Sin-Eaters now require you to make two characters in one, effectively? Each character is already pretty well loaded on variety well before you get to the Krewe, to the point that you really honestly do need the Krewe Archetype to keep it together.

    Geist is a pretty busy game, creation wise, and I'm just kind of bothered that you want to make it busier because, what, it's different from how other games do it?

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    "my character sympathises with the X Archetype despite their Krewe starting with the Y Archetype"?
    Krewe really needs defined Archetype in the first place? From what I see in Geist 2E preview rules, on day-to-day level, Krewes works just likes Packs in Werewolf - you and your friends find specific Krewes general idea that is STILL much more specific than one Tribe/Archetype in game. Gangs, cults, helping groups, etc. Krewes can have bold statement about Underworld - but so do Packs in Werewolf, for example. And on day-to-day running, you simply do not see often single Tribe Packs in play.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Hack implications - Logical is that IF Krewe is composed of members from Archetypes A, B and C - they can choose Ceremonies from lists from Archetypes A, B and C.They just choose ONE Ceremony for each dot level for whole Krewe. Done!
    And if the Krewe contains less or more than three Bound? Apart from the individual Archetypes affecting Krewe Ceremonies, does the individual gain anything that couldn't just've been stated as "my character sympathises with the X Archetype despite their Krewe starting with the Y Archetype"?

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  • Wormwood
    replied
    Aaaand I am out. I love what was done with the Archetypes. I see no appeal nor reason To this hack, to be honest, but you know your players, so you do you. If it works for your table, I wont be one to judge. Best of luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Getting into Krewe rules from Preview 3...

    Krewe Ceremonies
    By Archetype: Krewes begin with a one-, two-, and three-dot Ceremony determined by their archetype, and with the Bestow Regalia Ceremony.
    Further Ceremonies: Krewe Experiences may be spent to buy additional krewe Ceremonies.
    Initiation: Any krewe member whose Mystery Cult Initiation rating equals or exceeds a krewe Ceremony’s may perform that Ceremony.
    Hack implications - Logical is that IF Krewe is composed of members from Archetypes A, B and C - they can choose Ceremonies from lists from Archetypes A, B and C. They just choose ONE Ceremony for each dot level for whole Krewe. Done!
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-26-2019, 09:10 AM.

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  • milo v3
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Variety in players groups. It's easier for new players to make character 'here are 5 typical Archetypes ( ) of characters - pick one and customize it to our groups main idea'.
    You could just as much claim archetypes as colours or different types of fruit to associate their characters with when it comes to mechanics. I don't really see what variety you're adding over the default system.

    Why would Krewe lose their free Ceremonies? Each Bound still has Archetype - they just get more variety of those. Free Ceremonies list will just be expanded, with more options too chose for players.
    If the krewe doesn't have an archetype... then it doesn't have an archetype to get free archetype ceremonies from.
    Last edited by milo v3; 07-20-2018, 05:45 AM.

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