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  • Ask a simple question, get a simple answer - Geist edition.

    Hello everyone! I don't know if it's too soon for this kind of topic, but since I'm already working at starting a Geist 2e chronicle and I have questions... why not? Sooo... let's begin!

    What actually happens mechanically when a geist gets a higher Rank? There are some things that I know are true: other than Rank being a Supernatural Tolerance trait, the geist is a Bane for ghosts with a Rank two steps lower and they can use more powerful Influence and increase even more their Attributes with Plasm when they gain Rank.

    But... do the Attributes change by raising to the limits linked to that Rank? Should the Ban and the Ban be updated? Does their appearance change?

  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Again: The contents of the Unleashed Condition specify that a full track of severe Corpus damage makes the pair of you lose all your Plasm. This is the tradeoff of being Bound: the geist is largely invulnerable to harm until it is Unleashed, at which point it is Materialized and therefore susceptible to harm.

    In the geist's case they don't have Anchors and are bound to their Sin-Eater until the Sin-Eater dies for good, per the Bound Geist Condition given to the geist by the Bargain.

    A Bound geist functionally does not exist as an accessible actor unless it is Unleashed. Avoiding the entire Manifestation system and the economy it entails is half the point of the Bargain — it doesn't have Corpus while it's not Unleashed, and running out of Corpus while it's Unleashed causes it to lose all its Plasm in a way that it wouldn't lose all its Essence while unbound, and the tradeoff is that if you kill its host and then kill it, it is dead, which is a fantastic incentive for it to either keep its host alive or get along very poorly indeed.

    As a Materialized ghost, an Unleashed geist takes aggravated damage from its bane and suffer only bashing damage from anything else that doesn't specifically do worse damage to ghosts (such as unarmed attacks enhanced by the Rage). The extra layer of necessary steps to force a bound geist to be accessible to violence takes the place of the ability to reform with a single point of Essence while it lasts, because not needing to worry about maintaining that safety margin to be safe from permanent destruction is, again, half the point of the Bargain.

    Outside of specific circumstances, a bound geist is not a tangible thing in the world. It doesn't have or need Anchors, because it is linked to its Sin-Eater at the heart.

    Thanks again for the answers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
    Yes but the damage section at page 195 states that ghosts (it doesn't exclude geists) whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with lethal or aggravated but has 1 essence left (plasm for the geist)
    Again: The contents of the Unleashed Condition specify that a full track of severe Corpus damage makes the pair of you lose all your Plasm. This is the tradeoff of being Bound: the geist is largely invulnerable to harm until it is Unleashed, at which point it is Materialized and therefore susceptible to harm.

    dissolves into plasm and reforms in hibernation to the nearest anchor in the living world (in the geist case it would be its sin eater)
    In the geist's case they don't have Anchors and are bound to their Sin-Eater until the Sin-Eater dies for good, per the Bound Geist Condition given to the geist by the Bargain.

    or on the shore of the nearest river in the underworld, since geists are still ghosts and it doesn't otherwise says that this rules don't apply to them,
    A Bound geist functionally does not exist as an accessible actor unless it is Unleashed. Avoiding the entire Manifestation system and the economy it entails is half the point of the Bargain — it doesn't have Corpus while it's not Unleashed, and running out of Corpus while it's Unleashed causes it to lose all its Plasm in a way that it wouldn't lose all its Essence while unbound, and the tradeoff is that if you kill its host and then kill it, it is dead, which is a fantastic incentive for it to either keep its host alive or get along very poorly indeed.

    I figured that the only way to kill a geist (not a sin eater) other than it draining its plasm and filling it of lethal or aggravated, was to use its ban but I don't really have experience in this game so I don't know how to interpret it.
    As a Materialized ghost, an Unleashed geist takes aggravated damage from its bane and suffer only bashing damage from anything else that doesn't specifically do worse damage to ghosts (such as unarmed attacks enhanced by the Rage). The extra layer of necessary steps to force a bound geist to be accessible to violence takes the place of the ability to reform with a single point of Essence while it lasts, because not needing to worry about maintaining that safety margin to be safe from permanent destruction is, again, half the point of the Bargain.

    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
    You are right the book actually state that they don't have one but I think it refers to bound geists since in the condition description, it says that they don't suffer essence bleed while bound just like with anchors so I assume that the sin eater works as an anchor of sorts.
    Outside of specific circumstances, a bound geist is not a tangible thing in the world. It doesn't have or need Anchors, because it is linked to its Sin-Eater at the heart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

    I don t think that the sin eater works as an anchor for the geist.
    Does the core book states it somewhere?

    You are right the book actually state that they don't have one but I think it refers to bound geists since in the condition description, it says that they don't suffer essence bleed while bound just like with anchors so I assume that the sin eater works as an anchor of sorts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Neos01
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


    Yes but the damage section at page 195 states that ghosts (it doesn't exclude geists) whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with lethal or aggravated but has 1 essence left (plasm for the geist), dissolves into plasm and reforms in hibernation to the nearest anchor in the living world (in the geist case it would be its sin eater) or on the shore of the nearest river in the underworld, since geists are still ghosts and it doesn't otherwise says that this rules don't apply to them, I figured that the only way to kill a geist (not a sin eater) other than it draining its plasm and filling it of lethal or aggravated, was to use its ban but I don't really have experience in this game so I don't know how to interpret it.
    I don t think that the sin eater works as an anchor for the geist.
    Does the core book states it somewhere?

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    The Unleashed Condition ends one of two ways:
    1. It ends without resolving at the end of the scene, per the main text of the Condition.
    2. It ends sooner when the Condition is resolved by its Resolution criterion being met, that being a full Corpus track of lethal or aggravated damage; this gives the Sin-Eater a Synergy Beat and causes them to lose all their remaining Plasm.

    If a Sin-Eater loses all their remaining Plasm, their geist has also lost all their remaining Plasm, because the text of the Unleashed Condition specifies that the geist shares Plasm and Willpower pools with their Sin-Eater, and this is corroborated by the sidebar on Bound geists' "missing" Traits on page 76.

    Because they aren't merged with another person, un-Bound geists do not have this problem, and instead operate on the same rules as ghosts do, plus the adjustments presented for geists on page 197.

    Yes but the damage section at page 195 states that ghosts (it doesn't exclude geists) whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with lethal or aggravated but has 1 essence left (plasm for the geist), dissolves into plasm and reforms in hibernation to the nearest anchor in the living world (in the geist case it would be its sin eater) or on the shore of the nearest river in the underworld, since geists are still ghosts and it doesn't otherwise says that this rules don't apply to them, I figured that the only way to kill a geist (not a sin eater) other than it draining its plasm and filling it of lethal or aggravated, was to use its ban but I don't really have experience in this game so I don't know how to interpret it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
    Sorry to bother you again but can you point me at what page it says that a geist loses all its plasm if its Corpus is filled with lethal or aggravated? I have only read this about the sin eater when the unleashed condition is resolved while the bound is still alive, I didn't find anything that says that the geist loses all its plasm the same way when the bound is already dead, I'm sorry if I'm being insistent with this but I wanted to make a recurring geist character for my game and need to know if a geist can cut its lossess and just rematerialize like ghosts do either at their anchor or in the underworld.
    The Unleashed Condition ends one of two ways:
    1. It ends without resolving at the end of the scene, per the main text of the Condition.
    2. It ends sooner when the Condition is resolved by its Resolution criterion being met, that being a full Corpus track of lethal or aggravated damage; this gives the Sin-Eater a Synergy Beat and causes them to lose all their remaining Plasm.

    If a Sin-Eater loses all their remaining Plasm, their geist has also lost all their remaining Plasm, because the text of the Unleashed Condition specifies that the geist shares Plasm and Willpower pools with their Sin-Eater, and this is corroborated by the sidebar on Bound geists' "missing" Traits on page 76.

    Because they aren't merged with another person, un-Bound geists do not have this problem, and instead operate on the same rules as ghosts do, plus the adjustments presented for geists on page 197.

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Yes.

    If the Sin-Eater it's Bound to isn't Dead, which specifically changes what happens when an Unleashed geist is destroyed while it is the only active part of the player character due to that Condition.

    Per the Ghost section's text on Damage on page 195, a ghost with no Essence whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with worse-than-bashing damage is destroyed. In the case of normal ghosts, that's "destroyed utterly," and in the case of geists, they leave behind a deathmask — a type of memento variously described as dead objects and the product of destroying a geist; the sidebar on page 131 describes how the "corpse" of a destroyed geist lingers for a bit before it settles into a deathmask.

    Bound geists have Plasm instead of Essence in the first place, and an Unleashed geist specifically loses all the Plasm it was holding if it loses all its Corpus to lethal or aggravated damage.

    If you're killed with your geist's Bane, in a manner that resonates with your original death, or when you're at Synergy 0, you skip straight past the Dead Condition to being irrevocably dead, as described in the section on Death on page 98.

    If you have the Dead Condition from dying in circumstances where none of the above three circumstances are true, then your geist is Unleashed for the rest of the scene and you die with it if its Corpus is filled with lethal or aggravated damage, per the text of that Condition.

    Sorry to bother you again but can you point me at what page it says that a geist loses all its plasm if its Corpus is filled with lethal or aggravated? I have only read this about the sin eater when the unleashed condition is resolved while the bound is still alive, I didn't find anything that says that the geist loses all its plasm the same way when the bound is already dead, I'm sorry if I'm being insistent with this but I wanted to make a recurring geist character for my game and need to know if a geist can cut its lossess and just rematerialize like ghosts do either at their anchor or in the underworld.

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Yes.

    If the Sin-Eater it's Bound to isn't Dead, which specifically changes what happens when an Unleashed geist is destroyed while it is the only active part of the player character due to that Condition.

    Per the Ghost section's text on Damage on page 195, a ghost with no Essence whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with worse-than-bashing damage is destroyed. In the case of normal ghosts, that's "destroyed utterly," and in the case of geists, they leave behind a deathmask — a type of memento variously described as dead objects and the product of destroying a geist; the sidebar on page 131 describes how the "corpse" of a destroyed geist lingers for a bit before it settles into a deathmask.

    Bound geists have Plasm instead of Essence in the first place, and an Unleashed geist specifically loses all the Plasm it was holding if it loses all its Corpus to lethal or aggravated damage.

    If you're killed with your geist's Bane, in a manner that resonates with your original death, or when you're at Synergy 0, you skip straight past the Dead Condition to being irrevocably dead, as described in the section on Death on page 98.

    If you have the Dead Condition from dying in circumstances where none of the above three circumstances are true, then your geist is Unleashed for the rest of the scene and you die with it if its Corpus is filled with lethal or aggravated damage, per the text of that Condition.

    Ok, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
    Yes but the dead condition says that they both die if the geist is destroyed of consumed, doesn't a geist just discorporate if its health track is full?
    Yes.

    If the Sin-Eater it's Bound to isn't Dead, which specifically changes what happens when an Unleashed geist is destroyed while it is the only active part of the player character due to that Condition.

    Per the Ghost section's text on Damage on page 195, a ghost with no Essence whose rightmost Corpus box is filled with worse-than-bashing damage is destroyed. In the case of normal ghosts, that's "destroyed utterly," and in the case of geists, they leave behind a deathmask — a type of memento variously described as dead objects and the product of destroying a geist; the sidebar on page 131 describes how the "corpse" of a destroyed geist lingers for a bit before it settles into a deathmask.

    Bound geists have Plasm instead of Essence in the first place, and an Unleashed geist specifically loses all the Plasm it was holding if it loses all its Corpus to lethal or aggravated damage.

    I thought only banes and another sin eater consuming it could kill a geist.
    If you're killed with your geist's Bane, in a manner that resonates with your original death, or when you're at Synergy 0, you skip straight past the Dead Condition to being irrevocably dead, as described in the section on Death on page 98.

    If you have the Dead Condition from dying in circumstances where none of the above three circumstances are true, then your geist is Unleashed for the rest of the scene and you die with it if its Corpus is filled with lethal or aggravated damage, per the text of that Condition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    It explicitly says what happens when the geist's Corpus track is full of lethal or aggravated damage in the text of the Unleashed Condition, because that's the Resolution state for that Condition. Resolving the Condition instead of having it go away causes the Weakened Bond Condition (two Conditions down in the listing) to resolve at the end of the scene after the scene where the Unleashed geist is discorporated.

    If the geist is Unleashed because the Sin-Eater is Dead, what happens if it runs out of Corpus is likewise described in the text of the Dead Condition.

    Yes but the dead condition says that they both die if the geist is destroyed of consumed, doesn't a geist just discorporate if its health track is full? I thought only banes and another sin eater consuming it could kill a geist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
    I'm a little confused about the geist once unleashed, particularly when the sin eater gets the dead condition, once unleashed the geist gets corpus just like any other ghost but what happens when its health track is full of lethal or aggravated? I'm not talking about a weaponized ban, just normal damage, does the geist die for good and so does the sin eater or it just goes back to twilight and the sin eater gets resurrected at the end of the scene as usual?
    It explicitly says what happens when the geist's Corpus track is full of lethal or aggravated damage in the text of the Unleashed Condition, because that's the Resolution state for that Condition. Resolving the Condition instead of having it go away causes the Weakened Bond Condition (two Conditions down in the listing) to resolve at the end of the scene after the scene where the Unleashed geist is discorporated.

    If the geist is Unleashed because the Sin-Eater is Dead, what happens if it runs out of Corpus is likewise described in the text of the Dead Condition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    I'm a little confused about the geist once unleashed, particularly when the sin eater gets the dead condition, once unleashed the geist gets corpus just like any other ghost but what happens when its health track is full of lethal or aggravated? I'm not talking about a weaponized ban, just normal damage, does the geist die for good and so does the sin eater or it just goes back to twilight and the sin eater gets resurrected at the end of the scene as usual?

    Leave a comment:


  • Newb95
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Basically, yes; look at the concrete phenomena the Key corresponds to and filter that through the description for the Influence level being used.
    Thank you, I didn't expect geists to be this powerful, acting as a bane would also work on death spirits and spirits that have influence on death correct? I think I'm going to enjoy this splat.
    Last edited by Newb95; 12-27-2021, 11:28 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


    Thank you, what are some practical instances of this form of deaths? for example, the key of burning flame would allow a geist to weaponize fire? is it similar to the werewolf gifts that deal with elements?
    Basically, yes; look at the concrete phenomena the Key corresponds to and filter that through the description for the Influence level being used.

    Leave a comment:

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