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  • #16
    So, the Bound with an evil Geist. You know what? There's an entire gameline built around a nearly identical premise: Wraith: the Oblivion. Remember, the Geist is part of the Bound now; this means that the part of the Bound who was most recently alive doesn't have the option of walking away. His only choices are to try to assimilate his evil companion (raising Synergy) or to enslave it (switching to Tyranny). The former runs the risk of him becoming more like the monster; the latter, well…


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      So, the Bound with an evil Geist. You know what? There's an entire gameline built around a nearly identical premise: Wraith: the Oblivion. Remember, the Geist is part of the Bound now; this means that the part of the Bound who was most recently alive doesn't have the option of walking away. His only choices are to try to assimilate his evil companion (raising Synergy) or to enslave it (switching to Tyranny). The former runs the risk of him becoming more like the monster; the latter, well…
      It’s interesting that you bring that up. That’s a situation where switching to Tyranny might be a better option. While the very name implies that you are being just as cruel or unsympathetic towards your Geist partner, enslaving it for your own benefit... well what if the Geist in question was utterly horrible in life? A sociopathic serial killer in life is still going to be a sociopathic serial killer in death, if not more so as a Geist. If I, for example, were Bound to such a creature.. the Path Of Synergy isn’t really an option. I would have no desire to grow more attuned to this being, not would I wish to help it resolve things or align with it. By doing so, I feel that I would be a greater monster than if I did the “ evil” thing and enslaved it for the greater good of my fellow man, living or dead.

      Shackling a horrific murderer and using his powers to help people is just as legitimate and justified as increasing Synergy to do the same. Despite its name, there’s nothing to suggest that a person with Tyranny can’t use their power to be a legitimately helpful or even good person, depending on the circumstances. Giving the monster’s life a use by helping keep other, worse ghosts, reapers, or geister away from the living world isn’t that bad of a goal, to be honest
      Last edited by Korogra; 08-04-2018, 02:02 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Korogra View Post
        It’s interesting that you bring that up. That’s a situation where switching to Tyranny might be a better option. While the very name implies that you are being just as cruel or unsympathetic towards your Geist partner, enslaving it for your own benefit... well what if the Geist in question was utterly horrible in life? A sociopathic serial killer in life is still going to be a sociopathic serial killer in death, if not more so as a Geist.
        This is exactly the mentality the Underworld relies on.

        If I, for example, were Bound to such a creature.. the Path Of Synergy isn’t really an option. I would have no desire to grow more attuned to this being, not would I wish to help it resolve things or align with it. By doing so, I feel that I would be a greater monster than if I did the “ evil” thing and enslaved it for the greater good of my fellow man, living or dead.
        You literally would not be able to do the latter without "growing more attuned to this being."

        Shackling a horrific murderer and using his powers to help people is just as legitimate and justified as increasing Synergy to do the same.
        The horrific murderer cannot act while Bound up in the hollow where your soul used to be outside of specific circumstances that you can negotiate and you specifically get more control over them by learning more about them and increasing your Synergy with them.

        Despite its name, there’s nothing to suggest that a person with Tyranny can’t use their power to be a legitimately helpful or even good person, depending on the circumstances. Giving the monster’s life a use by helping keep other, worse ghosts, reapers, or geister away from the living world isn’t that bad of a goal, to be honest
        You've made the decision to literally destroy the last remnant of a monster's connection to humanity, keep the monstrous bits, and continue to use them to power the jacked-up death-magic the deadlands poured into them when they were desperate enough for power to drink scorpions. I don't care how many kittens you levitate out of trees, this is not something a good person does.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #19
          So far, the alternative ways (alternative as in not the general Sin-Eating stuff) of dealing with evil ghosts/geists that have been brought up are... to be an even more evil bastard. Not very convincing.

          EDIT: And like I keep saying, why are we conflating “treat them as people” with “hold them utterly innocent and right and virtuous” again? I mean, all CofD gamelines so far are written from the side of the monsters, showing us they’re still people in a way and why they do the things they do... without neglecting the fact that they can do some seriously horrible damage. Ghosts don’t seem that much different.
          Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-04-2018, 02:34 AM.


          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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          • #20
            LostLight Thinking about this for a while and just had a thought specifically this part of

            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
            perhaps it does deserve its fate and being devoured by the Underworld, or thrown into the Ocean of Fragments.
            reading this part made me think for a while and realize something if we're treating ghosts as a person then lets put this in another perspective is there an actual court or justice system right now in the world that throw's a person into a cell or prison and forces them to fight for food and water. (Which is essentially the underworld.)

            Or how about placing them into a lobotomy without anesthetic's (That basically the Ocean of Fragments literally throwing someone into a liquid that rips away their memories until they forget how to swim.)

            Thinking about it now I could actually see a Heretical Furies Krewe's would do... and something I think my PC or player group would fight

            Also mind you nothing actually stops you from fighting evil ghosts there are various ghost stories of killers and the system does allow you to fight and beat them in various ways the only thing you can't do is cannibalize them.
            Last edited by reaperfrost8; 08-04-2018, 03:04 AM.

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            • #21
              In a way that funnily relates to the larger question, which is better-maintain an open relationship with a geist that was worse in life, reining it in as much as you can and attempt to infect it/reform it with your own humanity in such a way that you still can act in such ways that ensures the final option should it be needed, or to crush it under heel and divorce it even further from humanity so that it'll be an even bigger monster once you move on, on the assumption you don't try to eat it in order to become a god?

              Sin-Eaters at least ask the question of whether or not a person can be redeemed, even if they keep final options open. A Bound-Tyrant's attitude of punishment for servitude at a minimum only drives the destructives impulses of a geist even further, which sucks in a broken world already designed to evoke the worst of people and trap them in spirals of behavior.

              Final thing to consider-All Geists have a new angle to evaluate their life, being that the act of becoming a Geist tends to scour memory. In this fertile monstrosity of archetypal death, seeds for revulsion against former human monstrosity can be sown, such that by the time the touchstones are discovered, a new person can look in horror upon it.

              "But what if assholes" is not a convincing argument for a group of people whose motives for returning are amoral at bests-none of the Burdens are free from self-interest, and in fact suffer from the vividness of feeling that make them worth making a deal with a small death god for. No one has a pure intent-they just have human ones. When the grounds for moral action are rooted in that humanity, then it becomes impossible to simply enact punishment without asking if you really, sincerely can't get why a person did what they did-and if you can get an imagining of why, then you have the beginnings of an idea on how such a person might become something else.

              Tyranny closes those doors and damages the frame, making it harder to open. If it's flat out not impossible that a person lost in fraying memory suppressed by the murk of What Is Death after their trust has been radically betrayed and their essence permanently wounded to then come around to a healthier way of living, it is still damnedably harder than already was or even needed to be.

              Some Geists will, invariably, be the sort that are irredeemable monsters, where none of that matters. The answer, in that case, is the unleash it and then drown the fuck in the Ocean of Fragments and move onward as a ghost. But there is a long road in-between Bargain and Annihilation, and not only does that road make it seem vanishingly likely you'd have to, but it never once calls for Tyranny. Tyranny is for fucking sell outs.
              Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-30-2018, 03:56 PM.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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              • #22
                Also, The answer to "But what if this monster needs to be controlled?" is "BITCH, YOUR BODY IS A CAGE, WEREN'T YOU LISTENING TO PETER GABRIEL?"

                But seriously, manage it right and your body is already an effective prison so long as you handle it right. Tyranny is being a shitty warden, at best.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  This is exactly the mentality the Underworld relies on.

                  You literally would not be able to do the latter without "growing more attuned to this being."

                  The horrific murderer cannot act while Bound up in the hollow where your soul used to be outside of specific circumstances that you can negotiate and you specifically get more control over them by learning more about them and increasing your Synergy with them.

                  You've made the decision to literally destroy the last remnant of a monster's connection to humanity, keep the monstrous bits, and continue to use them to power the jacked-up death-magic the deadlands poured into them when they were desperate enough for power to drink scorpions. I don't care how many kittens you levitate out of trees, this is not something a good person does.
                  Then so be it. I will come to the conclusion that you have never actually seen, talked, interviewed, or otherwise have any personal experience with people who are legitimately sociopathic, and that’s a relief to me.

                  But as someone who guards monsters of human beings who literally give not a single jot about who they hurt or what lives they destroy no matter how many times they are “rehabilitated” for a living, there is nothing in this argument that convinces me that what I am doing is actually worse. Is it right morally? Debatably no, But if I can protect actual, good people with this power, then that is worth destroying a monster and caging the remains to me. Sympathy for a creature that will destroy if everything and everyone you love if given a chance is naïveté at its worst in my opinion. It may be chained up inside your tattered hollows of a soul and cannot directly force you to fulfill its agenda, no, but if you think for a moment that it cannot or will never try to manipulate you into hurting people for their pleasure then you are mistaken. Monsters like the one I am describing aren’t like the garden variety ghost, and shouldn’t be treated as such, especially due to how tricky and normal.. how sympathetic they can pretend to be.

                  I do not care how much pus you drink, how many Reapers you dodge, or what deals with the Kerberoi you make .. I will not help you find absolution if you are a utterly disgusting human underneath the masque.

                  But this just proves that you and I would never be Krewemates or real allies, and that’s alright. That’s the draw of being Bound, or human in general; not all opinions, ideologies, or faiths can intermesh

                  There are right or wrong approaches, but what is right and what is wrong is infuriatingly subjective, at least when it comes morality
                  Last edited by Korogra; 08-04-2018, 03:23 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Korogra View Post
                    But if I can protect actual, good people with this power, then that is worth destroying a monster and caging the remains to me. Sympathy for a creature that will destroy if everything and everyone you love if given a chance is naïveté at its worst in my opinion. It may be chained up inside your tattered hollows of a soul and cannot directly force you to fulfill its agenda, no, but if you think for a moment that it cannot or will never try to manipulate you into hurting people for their pleasure then you are mistaken. Monsters like the one I am describing aren’t like the garden variety ghost, and shouldn’t be treated as such, especially due to how tricky and normal.. how sympathetic they can pretend to be.
                    tl;dr The Dead Belong Below. Got it.

                    I will not help you find absolution if you are a utterly disgusting human underneath the masque.
                    Fortunately nobody said anything about absolution and the closest thing there is has as much sample space for fire and brimstone as it does for eternal bliss. I'd rather unravel the filth-encrusted knot than feed rope into the rising Evertangle at the ankles of Creation regardless of the blood-to-tears ratio of that filth, if it's all the same to you.

                    Seriously, you think guilt is the strongest candidate for What's Holding Back The Hook-Hand Killer?
                    Last edited by Satchel; 08-04-2018, 03:54 AM.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • #25
                      @Korogra

                      ArcaneArts said it above, but because it seems likely that you missed it while typing it; while yes I (and many others here) would agree on dunking down those irredeemables as you put it... as far as the previews show us, Tyranny (and the Reapers’ agenda) isn’t that. It’s more akin to treating every misdemeanor as felony. And Synergy isn’t naivete of forgiving everyone; it’s about retaining the mentality to have at least one moment to decide if the raving lunatic over there can’t really be helped or not.

                      EDIT: To put it another way; Turning to Tyranny and Reaping to punish ghosts will break the principle of proportionality.
                      Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-04-2018, 04:05 AM.


                      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                      • #26
                        PS: You should probably stop working at prisons if you think the violent exploitation of people for powers is an appropriate metaphor for your job.


                        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          Those situations are explicitly the kind of things that serve as milestones for krewe development. There is by definition no generalized perspective on What Is To Be Done because figuring that out is a narrative process.

                          Your impression from the preview is that showing you that ghosts are people by demonstrating that the upper echelons of Underworld society are ruthless bastards who don't like it when a Sin-Eater rolls into town is part of the general trend of "ghosts are people and that means they're good"?
                          No, I'm under the general impression that this is an important question, and that the preview didn't gave me enough tools to deal with it. The way I read it it, I felt like that even though there are mentions for bad ghosts, the Sin Eaters are always there to help all ghosts- and as such, even bad ghosts should be helped. The virtual absence of antagonistic geists and the lack of what Tyranny actually means other than "that's what bad Bound are using" also donates to that feeling.

                          If you feel that the preview gives you enough tools to deal with those questions, so be it. I don't feel so, and I wish there were more, so in a way, the reason I made this thread is to hear how would people deal with that situation, as I feel the book didn't used enough wordcount to deal with it.

                          I mean, I love Geist, and I think the game is fucking amazing- but I just wish that the book would have dealt with that question, because it kinda made me feel as Sin Eaters are saints, and I am no saint. In fact, I can even be quit a bastard from time to time. If I was a Sin Eater, and I were to stumble upon the ghost of a serial killer, would I help it "move on", or trap it on the Underworld and let it rot away? I know myself too well to know it would probably be the second option.

                          As for the problem of "evil geists"- the thing that you either have to maintain Synergy or choose Tyranny is, again, one of the reasons why I brought the subject. If you can say "I raise my Synergy in order to better understand a serial killer/rapist/etc" without throwing up a bit in your mouth, you have my blessing- because I won't be able to do it. In that case, when Synergy is not an option and Tyranny would make you into a terrible person, all youi are left is to kill your own geist and die- which I can't believe would be an easy feat. The willingness to "die again" without gaining your second chance is, against, something a saint would do, and I am not a saint.
                          Last edited by LostLight; 08-04-2018, 04:38 AM.


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                          • #28
                            Why do people keep thinking the Underworld is a good metaphor for prisons again? Unless did I miss a note where prisons now drain prisoners’ bank accounts and other assets until it hits zero, upon which they grind them down to harvest their organs or something? Because unless they do, I honestly can’t understand how the metaphor works.

                            As for formerly heinous geists; last time I checked, the victim being evil doesn’t exactly justify morally doing evil acts to them.
                            Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-04-2018, 04:52 AM.


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              tl;dr The Dead Belong Below. Got it.

                              Fortunately nobody said anything about absolution and the closest thing there is has as much sample space for fire and brimstone as it does for eternal bliss. I'd rather unravel the filth-encrusted knot than feed rope into the rising Evertangle at the ankles of Creation regardless of the blood-to-tears ratio of that filth, if it's all the same to you.

                              Seriously, you think guilt is the strongest candidate for What's Holding Back The Hook-Hand Killer?
                              A select few, Definitely. Like I said, I only view the prescription to Tyranny as a fitting way to deal with geister who are truly monstrous, I do not believe it’s the answer for the vast majority of them. Since I used prison as a comparison before; some people do belong in a internment facility a great many more do not.

                              But regarding untangling the knot, if you believe that the best way to help the Geist is to build that Synergy up and uncover the person beneath, then by all means do so as best as you are able! You do as your Krewe and your personal creed dictates.

                              I imagine regret at not being able to those pesky, horny teenagers and the rage of being stopped play into as well. He’s a complicated guy.
                              Last edited by Korogra; 08-04-2018, 04:54 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                                Why do people keep thinking the Underworld is a good metaphor for prisons again? Unless did I miss a note where prisons now drain prisoners’ bank accounts and other assets until it hits zero, upon which they grind them down to harvest their organs or something? Because unless they do, I honestly can’t understand how the metaphor works.

                                As for formerly heinous geists; last time I checked, the victim being evil doesn’t exactly justify morally doing evil acts to them.
                                Have you considered American prisons?

                                They also desperately need reform.
                                Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-04-2018, 04:57 AM.


                                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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