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  • #46
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Sure, but it's not exactly a new discovery and it hasn't stopped prison being a wildly popular method of punishment.

    I take it that that's more or less Lostlight's original point. Lots of people think in terms of a moral order where proper punishment and vengeance are what matters. The fact that it's socially toxic is irrelevant.
    No wonder Catabasis is so difficult.


    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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    • #47
      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
      I think this is the point where we recall the assumed protagonists are called Sin-Eaters. And...
      I don’t think comparing a Geist to the immortal embodiment of evil, hatred, and Sin is quite accurate..

      Also I think Satan would give you the finger if you prayed for him lol

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      • #48
        Ok, first gotta say that I'm not well versed in Geist and came to this thread because the title intrigued me. I've read the first post and I think it's worth noting that "ghosts are tools" isn't the party line in Mage society in 2nd ED. I recently even tried to discuss it in the mage subforum but didn't get much response (perhaps should've made a separate thread for that... oh well". Anyway, the few times the corebook mentions that the Underworld and ghosts (exactly 3 times afaik - Moros write up, Ephemeral entities write up and Invisible Realms write up) give a different look on the issue than first edition, aka. seems that abusing ghosts is frowned upon and the best course of action is helping them move on, while the Underworld is seen as something wrong and cruel.

        Still doesn't mean that a individual mage can't treat ghosts like shit.but it seem more an exception than the norm now.

        Sry if i steered offtopic.

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        • #49
          Posting from another conversation on the subject:

          If your bargain has revealed the impossibility of reformation in the geist after all the time and effort to reveal all that there is to know about it but you don't want to sacrifice your second chance for the purpose of taking such a monster down, then you are probably at the point where you comfortably numb with this person living with you and well practiced in reining it the fuck, in which case get done what you need to and THEN do it. You don't have forever either, and if it's enough of a thing you care about, then set it as your last burden and otherwise be a responsible cage while getting your shit done. At no point do you need to force the ghost inside you to heel once you have successfully reach that point of revelation.

          Really though, there's a paradox to resolve. In order to reach a point where it becomes abundantly clear that the geist is an irredeemable monster to such a point where "Hey, maybe kicking it for power wouldn't be actually be bad here" is a "compelling argument", you have also deliberately made an effort to make the relationship amiable and sympathetic, which means you are sympathetic and amiable with this monstrosity of a person, which means you don't actually care enough to bother with the the moral gymnastics to justify Tyranny-hell, you probably took that option earlier than that point because you realized that you were an "Ends justify my means" kind of person and just decided to take yours.

          Anything else than is not only a dick move, it's also calls for a deliberate blindness to the way the afterlife works by warping and eroding people, both in the Quick Above and the Underworld, literally judging the book by it's cover in a game about *the opposite of that*.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-04-2018, 06:11 PM.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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          • #50
            Bottom line guys? It's a corebook. Let them have writing space for a supplement, maybe on it's own line's color this time.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Korogra View Post

              I don’t think comparing a Geist to the immortal embodiment of evil, hatred, and Sin is quite accurate..

              Also I think Satan would give you the finger if you prayed for him lol
              But weren’t you raising “But what if my Geist is irredeemable?” as a possible excuse to subjugate it? If the immortal embodiment of evil deserves a prayer, then so do formerly mortal ones. Now whether the ghosts listen is a matter separate from whether the Bound at least try.

              And the point of Synergetic Bargains, from all I’ve gleaned from the material, is that; trying. Trying to at least reach a point where you can get the guy to actually stop and talk instead of giving the finger to everybody, so that doesn’t seem much an issue either.

              And as far as it seems, Tyranny doesn’t try and neither do Reapers and their Gods. (And no, I don’t think “But Tyranny might not be that bad!” is a good argument here. So far CofD games didn’t use ironic or contradictory words to name concepts, so no reason to believe it’ll do so here) Which is why people (well, at least why I) were opposing your argument in the first place. Tyranny-Bound and Reapers aren’t the Hard People Making Hard Decisions. They’re closer to what the Seers and Prelates are in Mage. (Which in turn means I’d actually welcome the chance to play them in supplements, like Malus suggests. A very likely chance, seeing how the core already will have Cabeiros.)

              Also, what ArcaneArts posted from another conversation up there. Especially its last paragraph.

              EDIT: And I desperately need an actual name for Bound operating on Tyranny.
              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-04-2018, 06:57 PM.


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Korogra View Post

                Well you have to get your liscence plates from somewhere.
                "Haha, prisons are the modern incarnation of slavery"?
                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Edit: And I desperately need an actual name for Bound operating on Tyranny.
                "Tyrants" suffice?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                  So far CofD games didn’t use ironic or contradictory words to name concepts
                  Or rather, they've done it once for a thing where the irony is a substantial part of a point that exists for that term, and that point isn't salient to Tyranny on account of being the exact opposite sort of name.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #54
                    From what I've gathered about the topic, Ghosts aren't people. They've lost most of what makes them human, but going with that logic, some of the other splats aren't human either. So, if we dial it back a bit, and look at it from the perspective that vampires and mages are human, than yes, ghost are human, but more along the lines of Promethean. Both the Created and Ghosts were once people, but they are no longer whoever they once were. Prometheans are a completely new person when they wake, and ghosts are only a fraction of an echo of the person that spawned them.

                    Say Ross died before telling Rachel that he loved her. So a ghost pops up who needs to impart that message to move on. It's no longer Ross, its the part of Ross that loved Rachel. The love for fossils isn't there, the morals, the feelings of friendship are gone. The feelings of when Rachel broke his heart isn't there. So, is Ghost Ross a person? maybe, but he sure as hell ain't Ross anymore.


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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by HunterInTheNight View Post
                      From what I've gathered about the topic, Ghosts aren't people. They've lost most of what makes them human, but going with that logic, some of the other splats aren't human either. So, if we dial it back a bit, and look at it from the perspective that vampires and mages are human, than yes, ghost are human, but more along the lines of Promethean. Both the Created and Ghosts were once people, but they are no longer whoever they once were. Prometheans are a completely new person when they wake, and ghosts are only a fraction of an echo of the person that spawned them.
                      I'd contest that Ghosts are people. But they questionably aren't human. Depending on Rank, Ghost are more than the remnant of an echo - they can feel, and they obviously can change (see: Reapers, Geists, and Ghosts adapting to changed circumstances).

                      Originally posted by HunterInTheNight View Post
                      Say Ross died before telling Rachel that he loved her. So a ghost pops up who needs to impart that message to move on. It's no longer Ross, its the part of Ross that loved Rachel. The love for fossils isn't there, the morals, the feelings of friendship are gone. The feelings of when Rachel broke his heart isn't there. So, is Ghost Ross a person? maybe, but he sure as hell ain't Ross anymore.
                      Well, in point of fact, they are Ross. Specifically, Ross at that point in time where confessing their Love was Very Important. Now, are they able to move beyond that? Questionable.

                      Ghosts are people. It was never said they aren't damaged.


                      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Or rather, they've done it once for a thing where the irony is a substantial part of a point that exists for that term, and that point isn't salient to Tyranny on account of being the exact opposite sort of name.
                        Outside the topic, but this leaves me as curious as a cat; what was that term again? I’m drawing a blank here.


                        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          Outside the topic, but this leaves me as curious as a cat; what was that term again? I’m drawing a blank here.
                          Heroes in Beast.


                          Resident Lore-Hound
                          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            Heroes in Beast.
                            ... In retrospect that should’ve been obvious. Silly me.


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                            • #59
                              Ok more on topic of the discussion: my opinion is that every ephemeral entity is a person deserving respect. The books don't hide that they're capable of change and growth though it usually comes harder to them than to humans. At the same time a ghost is not a continuation of the person they were, but a new thing, that can develop differently only burdened with memories and aspects of personality of the person that birthed them, which seems pretty tragic now that I think about it. In that way, a ghost can't be held responsible for the crimes of the dead in the same way a child can't be responsible for the crimes of their parents.

                              I think having a ghost be responsible for the crimes of a living person is like having a person with implanted memories of a crime be responsible for that crime.


                              As for the crimes the ghosts commits after it's emergence it's less clear. While ghosts are people they are driven by powerfull impulses that are often something they inherited from the person that "birthed" them and having no experience with actually dealing with those impulses. Essentially they're somewhat like children. I think rank would a good measure here. While a rank 1 ghost is usually almost totally driven by its impulses, so should be deemed innocent of the things it does, a rank 3 usually transcended it's "echo-like" state so should be held fully responsible for it's actions.

                              EDIT: Forgot to add, this propably headcannon colored by my personal beliefs, take that as you will.
                              Last edited by Menace; 08-05-2018, 04:37 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                                But weren’t you raising “But what if my Geist is irredeemable?” as a possible excuse to subjugate it? If the immortal embodiment of evil deserves a prayer, then so do formerly mortal ones. Now whether the ghosts listen is a matter separate from whether the Bound at least try.

                                And the point of Synergetic Bargains, from all I’ve gleaned from the material, is that; trying. Trying to at least reach a point where you can get the guy to actually stop and talk instead of giving the finger to everybody, so that doesn’t seem much an issue either.

                                And as far as it seems, Tyranny doesn’t try and neither do Reapers and their Gods. (And no, I don’t think “But Tyranny might not be that bad!” is a good argument here. So far CofD games didn’t use ironic or contradictory words to name concepts, so no reason to believe it’ll do so here) Which is why people (well, at least why I) were opposing your argument in the first place. Tyranny-Bound and Reapers aren’t the Hard People Making Hard Decisions. They’re closer to what the Seers and Prelates are in Mage. (Which in turn means I’d actually welcome the chance to play them in supplements, like Malus suggests. A very likely chance, seeing how the core already will have Cabeiros.)

                                Also, what ArcaneArts posted from another conversation up there. Especially its last paragraph.

                                EDIT: And I desperately need an actual name for Bound operating on Tyranny.
                                My reasoning was much simpler and not at all serious actually.

                                Satan has a sad backstory, and he might be upset for rubbing salt in his wounds. The sociopathic Geist wouldn’t really care lol.

                                I see your point though, but I would still eye Tyranny as a liable option if it really boiled down to it.

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