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  • #61
    Originally posted by HunterInTheNight View Post
    From what I've gathered about the topic, Ghosts aren't people. They've lost most of what makes them human, but going with that logic, some of the other splats aren't human either. So, if we dial it back a bit, and look at it from the perspective that vampires and mages are human, than yes, ghost are human, but more along the lines of Promethean. Both the Created and Ghosts were once people, but they are no longer whoever they once were. Prometheans are a completely new person when they wake, and ghosts are only a fraction of an echo of the person that spawned them.

    Say Ross died before telling Rachel that he loved her. So a ghost pops up who needs to impart that message to move on. It's no longer Ross, its the part of Ross that loved Rachel. The love for fossils isn't there, the morals, the feelings of friendship are gone. The feelings of when Rachel broke his heart isn't there. So, is Ghost Ross a person? maybe, but he sure as hell ain't Ross anymore.
    Oh hey, Hunter.

    But as what has already been stated, that part of Ross is Ross, but it’s not at the same time. The living , breathing Ross is no more, but to say this fragment isn’t Ross due to missing other parts of his being isn’t entirely accurate. But you are right that it isn’t the same person.

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    • #62
      What makes a person a person?

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      • #63
        A thing that bears addressing:
        Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        If you can say "I raise my Synergy in order to better understand a serial killer/rapist/etc" without throwing up a bit in your mouth, you have my blessing- because I won't be able to do it.
        Things you know about your geist from the get-go:
        1. The broad umbrella category of how they died.
        2. The first step of a longform set of clues to an investigation that summarizes what's kept them scrabbling for purchase in the world.

        Things you do not know about your geist from the get-go:
        1. Who they were.
        2. Every awful thing they ever did.

        Things your geist cannot do:
        1. Clearly communicate complex ideas outside the context of intimidation.
        2. Act to harm you or directly compel your action.
        3. Act independently outside of specific circumstances, some of which involve you being dead or under threat of permanent death.

        This isn't Inferno, you're not host to a Larva that's urging you toward carrying on their legacy of sin and depravity. Geists have more direct routes to acting out their worst impulses than finding a conveniently driven stiff to hand the reins off to if their aim is simply "keep on a-murderin'."


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          A thing that bears addressing:
          Things you know about your geist from the get-go:
          1. The broad umbrella category of how they died.
          2. The first step of a longform set of clues to an investigation that summarizes what's kept them scrabbling for purchase in the world.

          Things you do not know about your geist from the get-go:
          1. Who they were.
          2. Every awful thing they ever did.

          Things your geist cannot do:
          1. Clearly communicate complex ideas outside the context of intimidation.
          2. Act to harm you or directly compel your action.
          3. Act independently outside of specific circumstances, some of which involve you being dead or under threat of permanent death.

          This isn't Inferno, you're not host to a Larva that's urging you toward carrying on their legacy of sin and depravity. Geists have more direct routes to acting out their worst impulses than finding a conveniently driven stiff to hand the reins off to if their aim is simply "keep on a-murderin'."
          Yet another reason why I expect Redemption will be a huge theme for Geist. I mean, the catchphrase is Second Chances, isn’t it?

          Maybe the reason why I’m taking all this so easily is because of background. Sin-Eaters themselves are often said to have no readily apparent analogue to Horror tropes, but “bond with a ghost-spirit-gos to become a medium between worlds” is pretty much how Shamanism works where I live. And the top priority of Shamans in my country? Calming the restless and anguished dead, resolving their anger and sorrow, and sending them moving onwards to the afterlife. And the country in question being culturally Confucian (like how a bunch of Western European countries can said to be culturally Christian), my ancestors have been dealing with the Problem of Evil without need to introduce the concept of personalized Punishment and Subjugation, so there’s that too. Not to mention all the Due To The Dead we have going around here.


          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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          • #65
            Originally posted by HunterInTheNight View Post
            From what I've gathered about the topic, Ghosts aren't people. They've lost most of what makes them human, but going with that logic, some of the other splats aren't human either. So, if we dial it back a bit, and look at it from the perspective that vampires and mages are human, than yes, ghost are human, but more along the lines of Promethean. Both the Created and Ghosts were once people, but they are no longer whoever they once were. Prometheans are a completely new person when they wake, and ghosts are only a fraction of an echo of the person that spawned them.

            Say Ross died before telling Rachel that he loved her. So a ghost pops up who needs to impart that message to move on. It's no longer Ross, its the part of Ross that loved Rachel. The love for fossils isn't there, the morals, the feelings of friendship are gone. The feelings of when Rachel broke his heart isn't there. So, is Ghost Ross a person? maybe, but he sure as hell ain't Ross anymore.

            Except that's not a Promethean at all. A Created is a new tenant of an old body, and in fact one of their milestones is them understanding that their life is something unique, not a reboot of someone who has passed on.

            Ghost have every claim to being who they once were. In fact, a ghost is nothing but who he once was; he's a memory of a person given a mind and the ability to channel Essence. Most importantly, though, if you talk to a ghost, he either talks back or is ignoring you for whatever reason; they can learn and change, so long as they don't suffer Rank 1 Amnesia Problems, and even Rank 1s try through the holes in their memory. So, Ross is defined by his love for Rachel. If his ghost is like that, it stands to reason the living Ross was a lot like that, otherwise his emotions wouldn't have allowed him to come back. More importantly, the idea that he has nothing but his love for Rachel is, to put it bluntly, outright contradictory of the text; he focuses on it because that's his Anchor, but if you talk to him about the Jets game (and aren't wasting valuable time for a window of communication), he'll light up and happily start asking what happened last match, because his turf doesn't have a TV he can easily tun on and channel surf. He just isn't obsessed enough to the point where that particular thing is an Anchor, because his hobbies don't absorb all of his life.

            Also, this view of things completely ignores the Absent, who can and do buy and sell aspects of those same obsessions they supposedly are nothing but, and retain fully coherent identities unless they overload-and even then that only lasts until the Memories are recycled, and the symptoms are simply them getting confused and remembering long-term goals that aren't their own.
            Last edited by Leliel; 08-06-2018, 11:42 AM.


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            • #66
              I haven't been able to post here through the weekend but I am LOVING the discussion! It's because very clear how different Krewes can so easily have different viewpoints and methodologies.



              Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                And yes, Geist makes the assumption that switching to Tyranny is a Bad Thing. But it also makes the assumption that one's Geist isn't totally repugnant to the person to whom it is bound — that while they have differences of opinion, there's enough common ground there to build on to establish a cooperative relationship. We're challenging the latter assumption here; and with it comes the possibility that the former isn't always a cut-and-dry always-right vs. always-wrong contrast, either.
                Putting it this way makes me wonder if there's a Deceived-style supplement coming for Tyrant PC's.

                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                Anyways, surprised this topic didn’t go into talking about doppelgangers. For another day, I suppose.
                What are doppelgangers in second ed?

                Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                I'd contest that Ghosts are people. But they questionably aren't human. Depending on Rank, Ghost are more than the remnant of an echo - they can feel, and they obviously can change (see: Reapers, Geists, and Ghosts adapting to changed circumstances).
                I come down in the camp of them being people, but not the same person as their living counterpart. Which does lead to the question of how much culpability they should bear for the actions in "their" lives - especially if those actions aren't particularly related to the core of what formed the ghost. If the human was a professional assassin, but their last thought was for the safety of their child, and that's what compels the ghost now, do you help the ghost resolve their fears for their child, or punish them for crimes that were imposed on them more than they committed? (Of course, can you be sure the ghost will never fall into that pattern?)

                By the way, didn't one of the developers say the Bound were ghosts as well?




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                • #68
                  Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
                  What are doppelgangers in second ed?
                  Ghosts of the living, typically formed from life-altering trauma.

                  By the way, didn't one of the developers say the Bound were ghosts as well?
                  The fact that Sin-Eaters no longer have their souls prompted "the nascent ghost of the dead/dying Bound" as a possible answer to "who or what makes the Bargain with the geist?" and the Oracle specifically leverages your metaphysical deadness to play necromantic telephone, but more definitely than that, no.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
                    By the way, didn't one of the developers say the Bound were ghosts as well?
                    Like satchel says.

                    Even still, it feels like you are your ghost. But I guess it's vague enough that multiple Bound can have different opinions on this. (Personally, I'm pretty sure the Bound a two ghosts wrapped up in one of the Ghost's body.)



                    Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Ghosts of the living, typically formed from life-altering trauma.

                      The fact that Sin-Eaters no longer have their souls prompted "the nascent ghost of the dead/dying Bound" as a possible answer to "who or what makes the Bargain with the geist?" and the Oracle specifically leverages your metaphysical deadness to play necromantic telephone, but more definitely than that, no.
                      Cheers.

                      Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                      But I guess it's vague enough that multiple Bound can have different opinions on this. (Personally, I'm pretty sure the Bound a two ghosts wrapped up in one of the Ghost's body.)
                      It's a pretty powerful motivator to answer "Yes" to Are ghosts people.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
                        Putting it this way makes me wonder if there's a Deceived-style supplement coming for Tyrant PC's.
                        We'd need the supplement for Tyrant NPCs first.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                          Tyranny is for fucking sell outs.
                          Take that as a second for Tyrant NPC's first.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                            We'd need the supplement for Tyrant NPCs first.
                            The same supplement could do both - the Deceived one did. Both Sineaters and Tyrants present a not-too-common twist on the possession theme - one where both the possessor and host are better off developing an amenable relationship with each other, and one where it's the host that subjugates the possessor. I'd be interested to material for playing both (but I'm glad the core book will focus on Sineaters alone).

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
                              The same supplement could do both - the Deceived one did. Both Sineaters and Tyrants present a not-too-common twist on the possession theme - one where both the possessor and host are better off developing an amenable relationship with each other, and one where it's the host that subjugates the possessor. I'd be interested to material for playing both (but I'm glad the core book will focus on Sineaters alone).
                              You've got me curious now if there is a rare Geist-dominant Tyrant variation.

                              In 1st Edition, the consequence of your Synergy running too low is the Geist gaining more and more control over the body (essentially switching who's in the pilot seat an who rides shotgun). So far, 2nd edition has done a complete 180 on that. Decreases in Synergy just has the Geist trying to wriggle free of the Bargain and eventually them going their separate ways and there is no implicit way for the Geist to, in any way, control the other-half-of-the-Bound (closest is when they break free and get to act on their own for a while while they throw a temper tantrum). So the conclusion I've drawn is 1) the Bargain doesn't allow for that anymore and 2) most geists would rather leave and find alternatives than to stay and make do with a super dysfunctional relationship.

                              But the book does state that Tyrants change the nature of the Bargain to change the Synergy Track to a Tyranny Track. So, what if that allows for Tyranny to flow both ways? What if, not often mind you, the Geist wins the seat during the Bound's attempts to subjugate their Geist?


                              Honestly though? I still feel like they'd rather exit the Bargain and Claim or Possess if that's what they wanted (though having free access to open and close Avernian Gates might make it worth it for them. Also if they don't have either of those previous Manifestations and only have the Bargain.)

                              /shrug, tons of edge cases, but it is fun to think about.



                              Frequent Story Teller for the Circle of Five gaming group.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by xiongrey View Post
                                So the conclusion I've drawn is 1) the Bargain doesn't allow for that anymore and 2) most geists would rather leave and find alternatives than to stay and make do with a super dysfunctional relationship.
                                Hm. The geist may not be able to control things on a metaphysical level, but the host could become psychologically broken down to the point where they no longer have the will to resist the geist's impulses. Could a geist accomplish that, or would it take outside circumstances?

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