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  • Geist populations in major cities

    Typically, how large are sin eater populations within major cities? Toronto, for example, is a fairly large city, but not known to be particularly haunted. It has it's fair share of ghosts for a city it's size and age, but it's definitely not going to be on any "top 10 haunted cities" lists. Would a city like Toronto even have any npc sin eater krewes, or would it only have a handful of independent sin eaters?
    Last edited by Shadowdragon; 04-20-2019, 05:42 PM.

  • #2
    Geist 2E corebook points that there are low and hights of Bound population, related to events of mass death in human population. So if there are mass deaths, then you will large rise of Sin-Eaters in area.


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    • #3
      Toronto hasn't had any major disasters that resulted in mass deaths, at least as far as I know. So i guess that, combined with the fact that Toronto isn't a very haunted city, would mean there probably isn't likely to be many Sin Eaters in Toronto.

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      • #4
        It's also Eye of the Beholder - population densities in urban fantasy / horror setting are in the end made up and should serve story in the first place. However, for giving you some advice or hint - four years back adventure for Beast the Primordial made very general monster population assumptions for New Orleans - and from those, we ended with this numbers:

        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        The new Beast corebook, in background section of SAS The Morning After, have first official monsters numbers per capita in nWoD! Finally you can make sound estimation of various monsters populations for you settings.

        This method requires some work, both in terms of setup and for the Storyteller to keep the game from devolving into madness, but it can be very rewarding. In this method, the World of Darkness is an integrated whole — New Orleans has a vampire population (perhaps the one described in the City of the Damned: New Orleans sourcebook, perhaps not), but also plays host to werewolves, mages, changelings, and whatever else you want to throw into the mix. Sure, that might strain credulity, but a) we’re talking about a game in which the players take on the roles of nightmare monsters from the Primordial Dream and b) New Orleans is a big city. The metro area has a population of roughly 1.2 million, and that’s not including visitors. If .5% of that population is in some way touched by the supernatural, that’s still 6000 people (or “people,” anyway). That’s more than enough for several otherworldly populations to be represented.

        Those numbers may seem too much. But buddy of mine pointer that “touched by supernatural” does not mean our main lines monsters. If we assume that all the Lesser Templates and various “other” monsters are in ratio 3:1 to Major Templates. * Then we end with 1500 proper gamelines monsters in New Orelean metro area - it’s raughlty 150 member per race. Let’s screw a numbers in favor of Kindred ( it is “their” city in sourcebooks ) and we will end with something like 500 vampires, 100 werewolves, 70 mages, 20 prometheans, 200 changelings, 100 hunters, 200 Sin-Eaters, 10 mumies, 50 demons and 250 beasts. I think those numbers are really okay, seeing how supernatural societies works in World of Darkness. Just remeber for your city building that you look more for the 0.0125% rather for your Major Templates population.
        In the long discussion, we 'fixed' the algorithm for making the 1:10 Major Template to "touched by supernatural" ratio. The starting 0.5% for 'touched' is 1:200 and the 1/100 for Majors is 1:20 000.

        By 2011 census, Toronto has population of 2 615 060. It gives us 130,753 of Major supernaturals, so round it to 131 Majors. Split it around 12 gamelines we have now in CoD universe, and we end like with circa 11 members per race in city. Of course, you can 'cut' the place for your monsters with missing races like Unchained ( God-Machine ) demons, mummies or, for examples, deviants. So maybe like 15 members per race?

        In the end, it's your's setting, do with that what you want with it.


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        • #5
          The only major guidelines on supernatural incidence, including individuals, for any given location are "usually everyone has had at least one supernatural experience in their life" and "There aren't so many that it necessarily demands that people stop pretending that exist and actually do something about it."

          There's a large population gap between those two points for any sort of area.

          Also, overabundance or underabundance of any given thing that might be deemed "normal enough" can be it's own plot point, so run with it as it is.

          I find the supernatural density question is best served when you don't look at it. From a small, personal look on things, it may seem lousy with incidence, only for a top down to reveal it's actually hella light. The Sin-Eater scene of Toronto is probably busy enough that you can always find someone to play games with, and therefore equally busy enough that the city says hell if you'll ever really know how many people are on the page.


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          • #6
            I remember a post where, in the first edition, they gave a rough population breakdown of some of the major splats. Changeling had a guideline of about one changeling per 500,000 people as outlined in the summer book. I think someone mentioned that, on average, Geists are the same.

            The era "God's country" I think mentions that 1950's New Zealand had about 2 Million people and had about 30 to 40 Geists. Since that was a popular historical era for them it shows that they are more rare than Vampires, Werewolves, and Mages (the big 3), but more than Prometheans, so maybe the same as Changelings.

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            • #7
              Re: Demographics

              I try not to get into the weeds of finding hard numbers for how many supernaturals inhabit a particular city or location.
              I do use a few general guidelines, but they all serve the story. And always try to remember the wider area- while Toronto might be quiet on a supernatural level, its pretty close to Detroit, which is probably filthy with Ghosts, Vampires, and all manner of things.

              I break things down into general "rarity" groups. While I don't often run crossover games, I do knowledge that beings beyond what we are currently playing do exist. My groupings are below.

              Ubiquitous: Ghosts, Spirits. These entities exist in high numbers just about everywhere, to the degree that if a area doesn't have plenty of Ghosts/Spirits, then Something Is Wrong.

              Common: Vampires, Changelings.
              My reasoning is that there doesn't need to be anything special about an individual to become a Vampire or Changeling. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is often all it takes. Between the two groups,Vampires would be the most populous, with Changelings being less so because it takes some degree of personal merit to escape a Keeper, which not everyone has.

              Uncommon: Werewolves,Mages, Bound, Hunters.
              For Werewolves and Mages, they must be tapped on the shoulder by inscrutable cosmic forces, but there is usually some degree of predisposition/destiny involved. Mages are the smaller of this grouping because there is an "opt-in" component.
              I put the Bound in this category as well, mainly because Geists probably are not that common compared to other Ghosts, let alone Geists in position to make the deal, and the prospective Bound willing to accept.
              I imagine Hunter's could potentially be as numerous as Vampires or Changelings, but not everyone assumes the Vigil, even when they might have every reason to. And I suspect Hunter's have a fairly high burnout/mortality rate which keeps their numbers down.

              Rare: Demons, Promethean
              The circumstances that cause an Angel to Fall or a Promethean require a confluence of events to happen in precisely the right way. This, in addition to the hazards of their existences, serves to keep their numbers low.

              Mythic: Mummies
              Mummies were all created by a singular rite performed upon a limited number of individuals. While this gives them a stable population, most of them are likely inactive at any given time.

              Undecided: Beasts, Deviants
              I can't quite draw a bead on where these groups stand.Beasts are someone between "chosen by a cosmic force" and "arbitrarily picked", with the text making arguments for both. And I don't know enough about Deviant yet to even venture a guess.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Reighnhell View Post
                Undecided: Beasts, Deviants
                I can't quite draw a bead on where these groups stand.Beasts are someone between "chosen by a cosmic force" and "arbitrarily picked", with the text making arguments for both. And I don't know enough about Deviant yet to even venture a guess.
                I would goes with Beasts as numbers as high as Vampires, maybe level lower. Horrors of Begotten are just superGoetia ( kinda like Geists are superGhosts ) and in BtP Devouring makes them 'spread' easily, kinda similar way like Vampires.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Reighnhell View Post
                  Re: Demographics

                  I try not to get into the weeds of finding hard numbers for how many supernaturals inhabit a particular city or location.
                  I do use a few general guidelines, but they all serve the story. And always try to remember the wider area- while Toronto might be quiet on a supernatural level, its pretty close to Detroit, which is probably filthy with Ghosts, Vampires, and all manner of things.

                  I break things down into general "rarity" groups. While I don't often run crossover games, I do knowledge that beings beyond what we are currently playing do exist. My groupings are below.

                  Ubiquitous: Ghosts, Spirits. These entities exist in high numbers just about everywhere, to the degree that if a area doesn't have plenty of Ghosts/Spirits, then Something Is Wrong.

                  Common: Vampires, Changelings.
                  My reasoning is that there doesn't need to be anything special about an individual to become a Vampire or Changeling. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is often all it takes. Between the two groups,Vampires would be the most populous, with Changelings being less so because it takes some degree of personal merit to escape a Keeper, which not everyone has.

                  Uncommon: Werewolves,Mages, Bound, Hunters.
                  For Werewolves and Mages, they must be tapped on the shoulder by inscrutable cosmic forces, but there is usually some degree of predisposition/destiny involved. Mages are the smaller of this grouping because there is an "opt-in" component.
                  I put the Bound in this category as well, mainly because Geists probably are not that common compared to other Ghosts, let alone Geists in position to make the deal, and the prospective Bound willing to accept.
                  I imagine Hunter's could potentially be as numerous as Vampires or Changelings, but not everyone assumes the Vigil, even when they might have every reason to. And I suspect Hunter's have a fairly high burnout/mortality rate which keeps their numbers down.

                  Rare: Demons, Promethean
                  The circumstances that cause an Angel to Fall or a Promethean require a confluence of events to happen in precisely the right way. This, in addition to the hazards of their existences, serves to keep their numbers low.

                  Mythic: Mummies
                  Mummies were all created by a singular rite performed upon a limited number of individuals. While this gives them a stable population, most of them are likely inactive at any given time.

                  Undecided: Beasts, Deviants
                  I can't quite draw a bead on where these groups stand.Beasts are someone between "chosen by a cosmic force" and "arbitrarily picked", with the text making arguments for both. And I don't know enough about Deviant yet to even venture a guess.
                  The reasoning behind the common and uncommon categories doesn't actually inform how common or rare they are. In particular I would place changelings somewhere between vampires and werewolves (but note that fetches will be much more common than changelings), and hunters more common than either werewolves and mages. Mages have been implied to be rarer than either of the big ones, found by other mages mostly due to how good mages are at finding each other and even those not found directly post-Awakening will still be drawn to the same Mysteries as other mages.

                  Bound have been extremely rare during most of history. It's chiefly in modern times they've become common enough that they have a chance passing on information to the next generation. Compare with all the other splats listed in common and uncommon that have had continuous societies since long before the current population boom. I don't know how common they should be in modern times. That's actually something worth exploring, either in a Geist game or using the rising number of bound as a plot device for a Mage or Beast game.

                  Prometheans are actually stated to number around 100 at a time, iirc, meaning mummies likely outnumber them during Sothic Turns (and definitely outnumber them if counting inactive mummies).

                  Ghosts, while certainly not uncommon, do need to have something to hold on to, as well as a source of Essence, to not be sucked from the world. Since both of these tend to go away after a single generation, if not faster, the number of ghosts are not that great (especially considering that not everyone leaves ghosts at all). The absence of ghosts should actually be expected unless you have reason to believe a particular place should be haunted. That said, you should also not find it weird if you ever encounter random ghosts in populated or once-populated locations. The only weird place to encounter a ghost would be unsettled areas.

                  Spirits really depends on whether you include spirits in the Shadow or not. The absence of spirits in the Shadow points towards something extremely dire for the area. The absence of spirits in Twilight is far less noteworthy since spirits can't hang around without bleeding much more Essence than they gain by staying on this side of the Gauntlet. Those that do stay have to use Manifestations to anchor themselves to someone or something and become Ridden.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shadowdragon View Post
                    combined with the fact that Toronto isn't a very haunted city,
                    You mean in real life? 'Cause 'most haunted' cities tend to be down to the local tourist board over anything else.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                      Ghosts, while certainly not uncommon, do need to have something to hold on to, as well as a source of Essence, to not be sucked from the world. Since both of these tend to go away after a single generation, if not faster, the number of ghosts are not that great (especially considering that not everyone leaves ghosts at all). The absence of ghosts should actually be expected unless you have reason to believe a particular place should be haunted. That said, you should also not find it weird if you ever encounter random ghosts in populated or once-populated locations. The only weird place to encounter a ghost would be unsettled areas.
                      Standard caveat applies that graveyards and similar places for the interment of human remains are going to be pretty heavily populated.


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                      • #12
                        Like others above, I consider Bound Population based on deaths and general disasters with the caveat that Bound don't seem to be averse to travel/relocation (in fact, depending on the Bound, they almost seem prone to it).

                        So as a thought experiment I chose a random city: Calgary, Alberta in Canada. There wasn't anything too accident prone that I could find on the Wiki (actually one of the safer cities) but I did find that it does have a history of interesting people settling there by the Bend River over the last few hundred years. So maybe not the birth place of many Sin-Eaters, but certainly some ideas for story hooks.

                        So I then googled a list of disasters in Canada and found that many cities in Ontario and Quebec where unfortunately particularly affected by the Swine Flu pandemic of '09-'10. I would say that that could qualify for a particular in-flux of new Bound even if the individual Bound didn't suffer from the reason of the in-flux (seems to me it's more about the underworld energy that's created.

                        This is a pretty large swath of area So it's reasonable to think that at least one Krewe drew in or migrated to Calgary. So I'd say there could be 1 mid-sized and 2 small-sized Krewes for a total of 15 total bound in the town of Calgary that were accustomed to the town or migrated there due to the Underworld related things going on in/from Calgary. (3 Bound per small-sized Krewe, 7 in the medium, and 2 Bound that are unaffiliated).




                        This is how I'd prolly figure out a place's local Bound.
                        Last edited by xiongrey; 05-03-2019, 07:08 PM.



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