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What would happen if the cause touchstone was resolved first?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    A human can do things that a geist can't. They can learn new haunts and can gain powers a geist couldn't within the same timeframe. They also don't have to worry about a bound dying as quickly as someone they possessed. The geist is so tied together with the sin-eater, he also doesn't really have a presence in the world but that can hide the geist from any enemies they made. They don't need humanity from the bond. What humanity would they get if they revived someone who had integrity 3 or lower? But more than that they just need someone who can help them preform a task they couldn't do alone.
    1) I have not heard a single benefit that a power-hungry, probably cannibalistic geist as is being discussed in this thread could not obtain in ways that speak to their particular worldviews, which again includes possession and claiming.

    2) I'm also not hearing any response about how the sort of geists this thread is discussing would develop Manifestations that speak to their desires over the Bargain Manifestation, or use it if for any reasons they manifest it against their character.

    3) The game has a pretty clear theme it's working for, and Posssess/Claiming Geists are very much the spectral response to Tyrants, Necromancers, and Eaters of the Dead within the frame of that theme, contrasted with the communities of the dead, particularly the Krewes of Sin-Eaters. Antragonists Geists could have been talked about more, I grant you, but what 2nd Edition has that 1st Edition is a clear delineation that Geists are no longer bound to simply making the Bargain in order to be an actor at all. It is telling that the Wretched aren't really a thing anymore, but the Claimed still are.

    You're trying to use a knife to do the entire work of a toolkit and wondering why you can't drill easily with it. There comes a point in time where that's not the game's failure in action.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
      1) I have not heard a single benefit that a power-hungry, probably cannibalistic geist as is being discussed in this thread could not obtain in ways that speak to their particular worldviews, which again includes possession and claiming.

      2) I'm also not hearing any response about how the sort of geists this thread is discussing would develop Manifestations that speak to their desires over the Bargain Manifestation, or use it if for any reasons they manifest it against their character.

      3) The game has a pretty clear theme it's working for, and Posssess/Claiming Geists are very much the spectral response to Tyrants, Necromancers, and Eaters of the Dead within the frame of that theme, contrasted with the communities of the dead, particularly the Krewes of Sin-Eaters. Antragonists Geists could have been talked about more, I grant you, but what 2nd Edition has that 1st Edition is a clear delineation that Geists are no longer bound to simply making the Bargain in order to be an actor at all. It is telling that the Wretched aren't really a thing anymore, but the Claimed still are.

      You're trying to use a knife to do the entire work of a toolkit and wondering why you can't drill easily with it. There comes a point in time where that's not the game's failure in action.
      Power-hungry and cannibalistic geists have a much easier time when they're with someone then when they aren't and having a possessed/Claimed human doesn't give the geist remotely as much durability or more importantly a shield to use. A geist is literally indestructible as long as a bound is alive. That's very different from being possessed or claimed where they can still be targeted or destroyed. The change to how geists work as actors doesn't actually change this fact or that they wouldn't need humanity to make a bargain. There's nothing about the geist that forces this condition of being one type of geist until you hit the synergy chart and what breaks synergy. I just don't think synergy as written is very good at conveying anything but a very narrow type of geist archetype working with a a very narrow type of sin-eater.

      Edit- Saying it's the game's failure is perhaps too strong a word but I do think that synergy is a tool that doesn't successfully represent the bond between a geist and a sin-eater. Rather it's used as a balance to preventing a bound from doing certain things rather than acting like a mechanic that works when a geist and sin-eater are in sync with each other. Acts like ectophagia and drinking from the rivers were things that were done before and after the geist became a geist and this just seems like synergy is being used a stick to beat the sin-eater in conforming to one mold.
      Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-25-2021, 08:29 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        Don't forget Doppelgänger who committed Ectophagia on their double in order to become a Geist. (Still the absolutely weirdest way to become a Geist: Do something unrelated to the Underworld that makes you absorb more of yourself, and transform into an Underworld-tainted being that forgets most of who you were.)
        You are literally the only one I know who pushes this reading. The Rank 5 ghost-fog from the storyhook isn't a geist. A ghost subjected to Death magic or the Words of Dead Dominion isn't a geist. A Doppelgänger who manages to reach Rank 3 is not a geist. Just because the Rank breakdown calls most Rank 3+ ghosts geists doesn't mean that every Rank 3+ ghost is a geist.

        Yet some mortals do become murderers.
        And their Integrity tanks as a result. Ectophagia of a human ghost has literally always been bad for a character's Synergy, even in 1e, and 2e's introduction of Castoffs and Barghests makes tying down a personlike actor to scoop out their awful guts for and eat them an especially desperate or unhinged move.

        the reaction should naturally fall somewhere on a spectrum and not according to the exact same standards the book implies is shared by all Geists.
        As Arc points out, there's an entire subset of geister it's appropriate for whose end of the spectrum doesn't fall into consideration for Synergy.

        the half of the character that has experienced the nature of death and had their entire being (personality and all) heavily twisted and transformed by otherworldly forces is automatically assumed to have specific limits they would not cross (even though most Geists must've crossed one of those limits in order to become a Geist in the first place), results in a very palpable dissonance.
        Here's the thing about drinking from the Rivers: It sucks. It's painful and permanently scarring. It is an act of desperation carried out in a place made out of dead-dead bodies that try to eat you when you haven't got enough scrounged or stolen memory to bribe it away.

        I've been lucky enough to have never broken a bone in thirty years, but I wouldn't suddenly become less averse to the prospect if I did it once, particularly not if it came with the rest of the baggage of being Iconic and Broken and all that lovely hyper-isolating business.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          And their Integrity tanks as a result. Ectophagia of a human ghost has literally always been bad for a character's Synergy, even in 1e, and 2e's introduction of Castoffs and Barghests makes tying down a personlike actor to scoop out their awful guts for and eat them an especially desperate or unhinged move.
          In 1e, ectophagia was only a synergy 6 issue. If a character was willing to have an at worst middling synergy, they could do it without rolling. It was also 3 dice when they were rolling. 2e makes it 1 dot per rank. Not only is it not rolled. The reasoning doesn't make sense. Most geists are cannibals before and after they become a geist. Why does it bother them NOW. More over, the issue is less that these are problems just that they're considered problems for every geist and that you don't get to roll to avoid them.

          Personally, my opinion is that drinking from a river should be 1-2 synergy loss and ectophagia should be a non-universal crisis trigger. If the reason that ectophagia causes synergy loss is because ectophagia is too mechanically beneficial. It'd be simpler to weaken the benefits, then to make it punishing.
          Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-25-2021, 10:36 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
            Most geists are cannibals before and after they become a geist.
            Cite your sources, because the only sense in which this is true is in the sense that almost every ghost in the Underworld is a "cannibal."


            Resident Lore-Hound
            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Cite your sources, because the only sense in which this is true is in the sense that almost every ghost in the Underworld is a "cannibal."
              Perhaps I'm conflating 1e and 2e because I remember geists having to do it in 1e. I have to actual reread 2e again because it might be muddling my memories.

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              • #22
                I will say rereading the ectophagia bit it seems like making a synergy loss based on eating other geists would make more sense then making it so that eating all ghosts causes a synergy loss. Though I still think 1 synergy per dot of rank is too extreme and should just be a flat rate. Like 1 or 2. 2. At first synergy seems interesting to tie into as both a powerstat and a morality trait but between trigger points and automatic synergy losses it is much too restrictive.
                Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-26-2021, 06:21 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                  I will say rereading the ectophagia bit it seems like making a synergy loss based on eating other geists would make more sense then making it so that eating all ghosts causes a synergy loss. Though I still think 1 synergy per dot of rank is too extreme and should just be a flat rate. Like 1 or 2. 2. At first synergy seems interesting to tie into as both a powerstat and a morality trait but between trigger points and automatic synergy losses it is much too restrictive.
                  Synergy gives you up to four dots for free for pursuing your geist's Remembrance, gives you two or three situational dots for pursuing your Touchstones, doesn't actually give you many things that Mementos don't replicate as a deliberate design point, and only suffers losses under the auto-loss circumstances or a dramatic failure at Intercession on a crisis point.

                  Crisis points are also the primary source of the unique Beat type that can only be spent on Synergy and there are a whopping four triggers for them, one of which gets narrower as you resolve your geist's Remembrance and two of which are also things that turn off your Haunts.

                  What you get out of ectophagia is Plasm and sometimes a new innate Key. There's plenty of sources of Plasm that don't require rendering a personlike actor helpless and scooping out their guts, and the utility of innate Keys over borrowed Keys can be counted on one hand. What you get out of drinking from the Rivers is something that you get from resolving your first two Touchstones, and the value in that is comparatively low even if the act wasn't a necessary step of the Evil Bastard Endgame.

                  Coming back from the dead and creating a Vanitas have obvious utility and minimal impact on the Trait, which is presumably why you're not complaining about those, but there's just not much point to making the Trait measuring the level of accord between the two halves of a liminal being straddling the line between life and death not be affected aversely by pouring more deathly power into the deathy half of the combo.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    Synergy gives you up to four dots for free for pursuing your geist's Remembrance, gives you two or three situational dots for pursuing your Touchstones, doesn't actually give you many things that Mementos don't replicate as a deliberate design point, and only suffers losses under the auto-loss circumstances or a dramatic failure at Intercession on a crisis point.

                    Crisis points are also the primary source of the unique Beat type that can only be spent on Synergy and there are a whopping four triggers for them, one of which gets narrower as you resolve your geist's Remembrance and two of which are also things that turn off your Haunts.

                    What you get out of ectophagia is Plasm and sometimes a new innate Key. There's plenty of sources of Plasm that don't require rendering a personlike actor helpless and scooping out their guts, and the utility of innate Keys over borrowed Keys can be counted on one hand. What you get out of drinking from the Rivers is something that you get from resolving your first two Touchstones, and the value in that is comparatively low even if the act wasn't a necessary step of the Evil Bastard Endgame.

                    Coming back from the dead and creating a Vanitas have obvious utility and minimal impact on the Trait, which is presumably why you're not complaining about those, but there's just not much point to making the Trait measuring the level of accord between the two halves of a liminal being straddling the line between life and death not be affected aversely by pouring more deathly power into the deathy half of the combo.
                    If it's not mechanically an issue I do think it should be a subjective to a unique crisis point. I just think a geist triggering a crisis point over you not preforming ectophagia is as interesting as it happening because you did. At the same time, that's not fair if preforming it causes synergy issues. And yes, I do think creating vanitas and coming back to the dead deserve a synergy loss. I don't have an issue with automatic synergy loss when I think it's appropriate but these feel like sticks to beat your sin-eater or bound into being a specific type of character which I don't agree with.

                    If I were in this situation, I'd rather make mementos or a greater mementos that let me substitute these issues for another one to sidestep my problem. However, I'm talking about the general and thematic issue I have with them.
                    Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-26-2021, 07:07 PM.

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