Questions about the Marionette Haunt

[WickedOne]

I saw at Onyx Path Publishing Discord's Server a girl questioning about the Marionette Haunt, so how I preffer forum I'm here to make 2 questions:

1 - Could a sin-eater uses Level 3 Marionette to rip off someone's limbs (like arm) or even decapitate? The book's description of this level says "She can rip open a car like a tin can"... Marionette creates strings of plasm over the victim maybe the player could just pull the strings in diferent directions and this will make a car open like a tin can while you hold the lower part of it and pull the superior part with the strings. If the Sin-eater can open a car like a tin can, so it makes sense to use this stregth to dismember as an attack.

2 - Ephemeral entitys are immune to Marionette? Can one uses Marionette against a ghost?

[Stupid Loserman]

1. Look at the actual mechanical description of what Phantom Strength does. It gives you strength to lift and pull at larger objects or more targets at once. It doesn't multiply the strength you bring to bear on a single target. When targeting a person, the Marionette is used to control their actions in a similar way to other templates' mind control abilities. It's a finer manipulation than "rip your head off."

[Epimetheus]

1. Look at the actual mechanical description of what Phantom Strength does. It gives you strength to lift and pull at larger objects or more targets at once. It doesn't multiply the strength you bring to bear on a single target. When targeting a person, the Marionette is used to control their actions in a similar way to other templates' mind control abilities. It's a finer manipulation than "rip your head off."

I believe the fluff outright says you can rip a car door off. The well has a similar issue where it says you have the ability to dissolve someone's need to breath or they'd drown to death but the mechanics don't support it.

[WickedOne]

1. Look at the actual mechanical description of what Phantom Strength does. It gives you strength to lift and pull at larger objects or more targets at once. It doesn't multiply the strength you bring to bear on a single target. When targeting a person, the Marionette is used to control their actions in a similar way to other templates' mind control abilities. It's a finer manipulation than "rip your head off."

The description of Marionette 3 literally says:

"The Sin-Eater’s control over the Marionette expands. Her Plasmic tendrils grow stronger, able to lift and move larger objects and bend them to her will. While previously she could lift a cop’s gun from its holster and shoot it, now she can manipulate the policeman directly. She can rip open a car like a tin can or slam a door as someone tries to walk through it. Using this ability with Swarm allows her to puppeteer multiple people at once, making entire groups dance to her own tune or hefting multiple large objects."

But, despite the description, the book doesn't give any mechanics that supports it.

1. Look at the actual mechanical description of what Phantom Strength does. It gives you strength to lift and pull at larger objects or more targets at once. It doesn't multiply the strength you bring to bear on a single target. When targeting a person, the Marionette is used to control their actions in a similar way to other templates' mind control abilities. It's a finer manipulation than "rip your head off."

Same occurs with The Tomb, the Haunt's description says that even members can regenerate, but doesn't give any mechanics that supports it.



I have seen too much "house rules" that fullfils these "system holes", and I feared that those "house rules" could "fend off players from the official system.".

[Epimetheus]

In what way?

[Satchel]

The well has a similar issue where it says you have the ability to dissolve someone's need to breath or they'd drown to death but the mechanics don't support it.

…"Attributes, Physical Merits, Mental Merits, and Social Merits that rely on intrinsic qualities are valid targets, as are non-mechanical features such as overall appearance, sex, and the like (which require a single Plasm to strip)."

[Epimetheus]

…"Attributes, Physical Merits, Mental Merits, and Social Merits that rely on intrinsic qualities are valid targets, as are non-mechanical features such as overall appearance, sex, and the like (which require a single Plasm to strip)."

Breathing and another example sleeping are mechanical features. Without the need to breath you no longer suffer from drowning or penalties that involve oxygen. That leap moves to not needing to sleep which is tied to willpower. I didn't think they'd actually extend to that level with the wording the way it was.

[Oddness]

Huh, I could have sworn I saw something that said your marionette rating was basically your strength rating if it ever came up, but I'm not seeing that explicitly spelled out.

There IS a sidebar on page 109 that strongly implies what you should do if someone tries this. It says to use normal mechanics for throwing objects and substitute Synergy + Marionette for strength + Athletics - size. This is interesting because using the ability takes away the penalty for large objects - if you can control a truck using marionette you can 'throw' a truck using marionette.

[Epimetheus]

Huh, I could have sworn I saw something that said your marionette rating was basically your strength rating if it ever came up, but I'm not seeing that explicitly spelled out.

There IS a sidebar on page 109 that strongly implies what you should do if someone tries this. It says to use normal mechanics for throwing objects and substitute Synergy + Marionette for strength + Athletics - size. This is interesting because using the ability takes away the penalty for large objects - if you can control a truck using marionette you can 'throw' a truck using marionette.

It depends on the size of the truck but yes. There are limitations. The marionette can't go more then 11 Size so a full 18 wheeler might be too big.

[Oddness]

Right. So if I were to rule on this I'd say (if you successfully marionette's something) you essentially control it as if it were your own body with an equivalent strength of your marionette dots regardless of how big the thing you are possessing is - and the added bonus that you don't really need to worry as much about if something is built to work the way you're about to force it to go. Want to rip the doors off of a truck? Same mechanics as if you were doing it by hand except your roll is now Marionette + Synergy - durability. For the ripping the door off of the vehicle example I'd probably use a reduced structure since your not actually destroying the vehicle - just parts of it. Maybe 3 structure for a door, 5 for the roof of an SUV? Hard to say for sure because an SUV with the roof ripped off is considerably less structurally sound than a convertible with its top down.

Ripping the arm off a person? Good news is it's essentially a specified target (pg. 157 of GTSE) with no penalty - since you don't really need to aim any harder than usual to punch yourself in the face (did I really just write that? lol). The bad news is - if the subject is conscious - it's still there body and they can fight back with a resisted roll. If they're not conscious, they're probably about to be. I am not sure how much damage you'd need to do to justify ripping someone's arm off but I'd guess you need to be in the Agg category. Alternatively you could rule that you'd have to basically inflict arm-wrack twice (inflict 2x the victims stamina in a single hit.)

So yeah. Technically phantom strength can enable you to do these things since you can effect a larger surface area at once with marionette then you could with your fleshy meat body - but except in extreme circumstances I doubt you would be able to rip someone's head off with it. Combine it with demolisher though and you have a Sin-Eater who can probably crush your car with their mind while you frantically try to drive away at high speeds - something you couldn't possibly do even if you were IN the car without the power.

Regarding the second question: I see no rules saying ephemeral entities are immune and I don't see why they would be.

[WickedOne]

Right. So if I were to rule on this I'd say (if you successfully marionette's something) you essentially control it as if it were your own body with an equivalent strength of your marionette dots regardless of how big the thing you are possessing is - and the added bonus that you don't really need to worry as much about if something is built to work the way you're about to force it to go. Want to rip the doors off of a truck? Same mechanics as if you were doing it by hand except your roll is now Marionette + Synergy - durability. For the ripping the door off of the vehicle example I'd probably use a reduced structure since your not actually destroying the vehicle - just parts of it. Maybe 3 structure for a door, 5 for the roof of an SUV? Hard to say for sure because an SUV with the roof ripped off is considerably less structurally sound than a convertible with its top down.

Ripping the arm off a person? Good news is it's essentially a specified target (pg. 157 of GTSE) with no penalty - since you don't really need to aim any harder than usual to punch yourself in the face (did I really just write that? lol). The bad news is - if the subject is conscious - it's still there body and they can fight back with a resisted roll. If they're not conscious, they're probably about to be. I am not sure how much damage you'd need to do to justify ripping someone's arm off but I'd guess you need to be in the Agg category. Alternatively you could rule that you'd have to basically inflict arm-wrack twice (inflict 2x the victims stamina in a single hit.)

So yeah. Technically phantom strength can enable you to do these things since you can effect a larger surface area at once with marionette then you could with your fleshy meat body - but except in extreme circumstances I doubt you would be able to rip someone's head off with it. Combine it with demolisher though and you have a Sin-Eater who can probably crush your car with their mind while you frantically try to drive away at high speeds - something you couldn't possibly do even if you were IN the car without the power.

Regarding the second question: I see no rules saying ephemeral entities are immune and I don't see why they would be.

I really like the way you see this possibility and the system to actually use marionette 3 as an attack. Your system is more based on the Bound sheet and seems more accurate to me. I'd saw a chronicle were the storyteller did define as the dice roll to rip off doors, arms and use the Phantom Stregth as the "power atributte" of the geist. However, I don't know where did it come from.