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  • Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post

    Manifestations, actually, not Numina--and Manifestation Conditions produce it on the regular as long as they last (though that may change if playtesting shows there's still not enough to go around). Haunted houses are very nice sources of Plasm, and Avernian Gateways are downright soupy with the stuff (though having a door to the Underworld in your backyard has its own problems).

    And unless there's a weird ghost-harvesting Merit tucked away in a book somewhere, you're misremembering re: Aether. Only angels spending Essence and the God-Machine directly manipulating reality via Infrastructure generate Aether, ghosts have nothing to do with it.
    wait are ectoplasm from ghost and the plasm used by Sin-Eaters the same? I thought they were different.

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    • Originally posted by Blakemikizuki View Post

      wait are ectoplasm from ghost and the plasm used by Sin-Eaters the same? I thought they were different.
      My understanding is that ectoplasm is what ghosts are composed of, and plasm is the energy that death creates; ectoplasm is to a ghost what flesh is to a human. Ghosts and Sin Eaters both need plasm to function, but ghosts create it naturally simply by the virtue of being dead, whereas Sin Eaters require it for their powers and can only produce it under certain circumstances that reflect their own averted death. This is partially why Sin Eaters can eat ghosts, as a way to give them a quick and easy method of gaining plasm.

      Bear in mind, though, that's from first edition.
      Last edited by Taidragon; 09-27-2016, 11:52 PM.

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      • Not quite; you're thinking of "ephemera." Ghosts are made of ephemera and require Essence to continue existing and to fuel their powers. Plasm is a corporeal side product of ghosts spending Essence on Manifestations, the presence of Manifestation Conditions, and a few other sources (e.g. you can scarf down a Memento for Plasm, assuming you can get it down your neck).

        It's like the scene in the 1984 Ghostbusters where they're exploring the library and they find all that goop on the card catalogues: the Librarian ghost had made the stacks Open, which resulted in Plasm as a residual effect. Had Egon been a Sin-Eater, he could have consumed it (preferably in a manner resonant with his own death); otherwise it would sublimate shortly after being collected.

        The one exception to all this is eating ghosts directly: because of the Bargain, which makes Sin-Eaters partly ghost-like themselves, they can tear hunks out of ghosts and eat them for Plasm even if the ghost isn't Manifesting at the time--the ephemera converts into Plasm as it's being eaten. Other folks who try to eat ghosts for the supernatural power they contain aren't so lucky: they need to rely on occult rituals or weird science or some other means to render ephemera into tangible Plasm.


        Travis Stout
        Geist 2e Developer

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        • Plasm also counts as Open for ghosts, so if one ghost possesses something and gets it covered it gunk then leaves, another ghost can have a go without building up the Conditions.

          (The plasm in a Sin Eater is already being used. By their Geist.)

          The two spells in mage that produce "ectoplasm" are, yes, making Plasm as in the Bound fuel trait. Mages are just sufficiently up themselves to not shorten the word.


          Dave Brookshaw

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          • Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            ​I'll just say this: It's still fundamentally the same game about people who have died and come back thanks to the intervention of a spooky ghost-thing... but aside from that it's probably going to see the most mechanical differences compared to its first edition of any CofD game so far.

            If I had to pick two inspirational media that really nail the tone we're going for with Geist, it would be Mama and ParaNorman. Make of that what you will.
            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            I would say rather that it is hopeful. Every ghost story is, at its core, a tragedy--someone died, and they left something terribly important unfinished. Injustices were done and never righted. Lovers torn from one another, grand dreams thrown into the dark below to be forgotten.

            Geist is a game about looking at that state of affairs and saying "No." And then being able to back that up with action.
            Nice to see that the premise for the game is more or less the same, and it's going to get a lot of streamlining and improvement. I'm looking forward to more updates on this, seeing as me and my sister are fans of this splat.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Well, since the 2nd Edition ephemeral entities rules co-opted the term "Manifestation," bare minimum you can expect them to be called something different.
            Something like Locks, perhaps? Arcanist used that term in place of Manifestations for his Sin-Eater conversions.

            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Keys are still in, but the powers are getting a major overhaul. It's still too early for me to want to talk about mechanics, but it's not going to be the same system as 1e. For one thing, trying to design and balance a full set of powers for every Key/Haunt* combo is an incredibly difficult task, and leads to a lot of weird, athematic powers. For another, space is a concern for PoD books. Geist 1e spent 37,000 words in Manifestations and Keys; we have about 25k for the topic. And finally, I'd like Geist to get some actual supplements this time around, and the logistics of trying to add new powers to a grid like that is a nightmare.

            So expect a tighter, more thematic power set this time around. We're experimenting with some pretty cool stuff, though comma that I think will make them feel pretty mechanically distinct from the other spots.

            * Spoiler. :-)
            I stand corrected. Not sure if I prefer that term over Lock/Seal.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Neither ghosts nor abmortals are in the Antagonists chapter. Make ofthat what you will. I'm really happy with the antagonists we have, though, and I think you all will be too. [REDACTED] are especially creepy, and [REDACTED] are goddamn terrifying.
            Okay, now I want to know who/what [REDACTED] is. On a different note, this does allow for homebrewing a conversion for Abmortals.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Krewes building their own mystery religion is still in. Geists transforming into/revealing mythological aspects is out.
            Well, that pretty much lines up with what was covered on Sin-Eaters in the Pack. That said, I do hope the mystery religion aspect of a Krewe is streamlined.

            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Beware of ghosts bearing masks.
            Especially when you are teasing us with very small tidbits like this.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Probably around November/December, if I had to guess.

            Geists are pretty direct beings. Not a whole lot of dissimulation there. If your geist is the King-That-Was, who is the amalgamated ghost of every monarch who was murderously deposed, it's going to factor into your mystery religion as "the amalgamated ghost of every monarch who was murderously deposed." Of course, that's assuming your krewe is building its religion around geists as deities/mythic figures and not some other foundation.
            Okay. Aside from getting hyped that the open developments will start a little after my birthday, the way you describe Geists really makes them similar to spirits in that they embody/reflect concepts. That said, it gives some deeper context into how mixed packs/krewes mesh together.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            There's an Appendix in the vein of the ones in Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage yes. Not going to spoil who it's about just yet, but I will say it's written by the brilliant Filamena Young, who also wrote Ghouls, Wolf-blooded, and Proximi, so if you liked those sections, I think you'll like what we've got planned.
            Good to know.



            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            David Hill is already after me to let him share the draft, but I want more time to blog about the underlying changes first. But it's awesome as usual. :-)
            It's Tokyo. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Ceremonies look a lot more like Forsaken 2e rites now--some suggestions for symbolism/ritual actions to provide a guideline, but you can and should decide for yourself what that specific ceremomy looks like for your krewe.
            I knew it would be converted into that format. It does make me wonder if Synergy might be handled in a manner similar to Harmony for 2E.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            Yeah, the whole point of becoming a geist is to Anchor yourself to an abstract concept rather than a person, place, or object, and thus be way less vulnerable to being blasted away into the Underworld. They still have to find their way back out via an Avernian Gate or some other means, though, so you'll find plenty of unbound geists lurking both in the Underworld and in Twilight.
            Hence, a number of possible story hooks in any Sin-Eater Chronicle.


            Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
            The Cthonian rules might be a weee bit more detailed than "just use ghost rules, yo" in a game line which a) deals with the Underworld all of the time and b) has more than 30 words to spare towards them.
            I really do like to see how they will be handled, especially since it was implied(?) that Cthonians were the ones who originally made pacts with Sin-Eaters far back in the past.


            Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
            They've been cleaned up a lot mechanically, but within the fiction they're largely the same: they're still objects touched by the energies of death, they still have Keys, and they still have weird little side-effects in the vein of Objects in The Lost Room, but there are no longer five wholly different kinds of Memento with different mechanics for each.

            They're also a lot more integral to Sin-Eaters' powers, so you have a lot of incentive to seek them out and carry them around.
            I really hope this is one of the first things previewed, come open development.


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            • Originally posted by GimpInBlack View Post
              The one exception to all this is eating ghosts directly: because of the Bargain, which makes Sin-Eaters partly ghost-like themselves, they can tear hunks out of ghosts and eat them for Plasm even if the ghost isn't Manifesting at the time--the ephemera converts into Plasm as it's being eaten. Other folks who try to eat ghosts for the supernatural power they contain aren't so lucky: they need to rely on occult rituals or weird science or some other means to render ephemera into tangible Plasm.
              Well, technically Ghosts in Twilight are still using the Twilight Form Manifestation, right?

              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              Mages are just sufficiently up themselves to not shorten the word.
              Sounds about right for Mages.


              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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              • Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                . Mages are just sufficiently up themselves to not shorten the word.

                Or the reverse, Sin-Eaters are sufficiently avant garde to slang it up and shorten it. (Or both really).

                Edit: And now I want to write it as 'plasm. Like a shortened form and 'pataphysics.


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                • Vent0 You don't need a Manifestation to exist in your normal form. Otherwise every Ghost would have it's first Manifestation locked down by that.

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                  • Originally posted by Aspel View Post
                    Vent0 You don't need a Manifestation to exist in your normal form. Otherwise every Ghost would have it's first Manifestation locked down by that.
                    But Ghosts, Spirits, and Angels (but not Goetia) explicitly get Twilight Form for free, and it is called out as a prerequisite to exist in Twilight (and why Goetia normally can't).

                    EDIT: You might be able to have Spirits or Ghosts that lack Twilight Form, which would mean they are restricted to the Shadow and Underworld, respectively, much like Goetia are restricted to the Astral (normally).


                    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                    • Given how the new antagonists are replacing abmortals, I'm going to assume one type is a variety of necromancer. And given their link to masks, and how fascinated Sin-Eaters are with idiosyncratic identities, I'm going to guess the other is about destroying identity=some kind of anti-Geist (who became part-spirits out of the desire to have an identity).


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                      • To be fair, destruction of identity is something the Underworld itself kind of seems to push for, what with the Ocean of Fragments. Which (if they are indeed connected to identity loss) makes one wonder if and how the mask-bearing ghosts might fit into the bigger picture... are they some kind of ghostly "cult" dedicated to the Ocean? Or maybe, somehow, some kind of "mechanism" of the Underworld itself?


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                        • Masked ghosts? Makes me think of the Hollows from the anime series Bleach...


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                          • Will Bound still have that death sight thing that lets them see the amount of lifetime a person has remaining over their heads?

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                            • Originally posted by Runcible View Post
                              Will Bound still have that death sight thing that lets them see the amount of lifetime a person has remaining over their heads?
                              They didn't have that before. You're thinking of Death Note. The Sin-Eater counterpart was being able to tell how old people were, spot the walking dead, and register people who were on track to die as the relevant Threshold.


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                              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                They didn't have that before. You're thinking of Death Note. The Sin-Eater counterpart was being able to tell how old people were, spot the walking dead, and register people who were on track to die as the relevant Threshold.
                                That last trait I was unaware of. I really hope that the second edition does a better job of relaying this info than first edition did; while it means each new read offers something new, it also means you play with half the game unknown. It is a problem Beast has to a degree, such as in building up your legend. I only learned about it after a friend told me about it, and it was something he only found after a long time with the book.

                                Then again, I have missed obvious details before...

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