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  • #16
    The way I run things, Sin-Eaters at Psyche 6 and above effectively become quasi-ghost-like themselves. Its not that they have to keep the connection strong, its that the connection has become so strong that the same entropic force that forces ghosts inexhorably down into the great darkness, pulls the Sin-Eater down aswell. If the Sin-Eater doesn't willfully abide by the "time spend in Underworld" rule, he'll randomly fade into the ground and be dragged down into the Underworld. All the more violently at higher Psyche ratings.

    Geister are sorta like minor Gods of very specific kinds of death. They're kinda a thinking idea of death, more so than an actual entity. Though they still carry the memory of the person they once were, they aren't really that person anymore. They're that persons ephemeral ideas, memories and emotions shaped by whatever aspect of death that dominated his psyche. Almost like an unliving self-perpetuating Zeigeist of death.
    Now enter the Sin-Eater. An idea is no good if nobody believes that idea. A Ghost will fade if forgotten and so will even the most intricate idea. Most Ghosts dont really have any insurance that they wont suddenly disppear, because their last Anchor is destroyed. The Geist however, as a pretty good foothold. Its become an idea, almost universally so. A Geist of "Fiery Death" or "Mass Shootings" probably wont loose that Anchor anytime soon. However, just because it wont lose that Anchor doesn't mean its happy to just stagnate. Ideas need to propagate in order to expand, and a dead man wants to be alive again. The Geist is the merger between an idea and a dead-man, so it is natural that this thing has two priorities: Propagate the idea that is ME, and experience life.
    Although it is grosely hindered in both of these in its form, it can enlist a mortal agent to accomplish both for it, doing both vicariously through the Sin-Eater.
    In this regard, the Sin-Eater isn't just a meat-suit for the dead-man to experience life again. The Sin-Eater is also the living conduit of the very idea and notion of whatever death the Geist embodies. Every Sin-Eater is the high-priest and ultimate authority in the orthodoxy that is their Geist. When the Sin-Eater transgresses against Stnergy, he is going against the dogma of his religion. A shame to him, that this particular religion has its God living inside his mind and soul. It is an angry God.
    Worse still, that God doesn't just live there. Its melted with him, becomming something half-way between an idea, a dead-man and a living person. Synergy is a measure of how well that trinity is balanced. While both the Sin-Eater and Geist has a loose understaning of their part of the amalgamations mind, none of them truely understand the mix-thing they've become, and the extend to which their identity as an idea as come to define them. Therefor, they might each believe that a certain action is entirely within reason, but its still a Synergy sin, because it goes against the morality of the amalgamation they've become, which neither of them understand.

    Well. Thats enough spit-balling for now.
    Tl;DR: Geists are Gods of Death and Sin-Eaters are their high priests. They dont like transgressing against their Gods dogma.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by wander View Post
      Okay... So moving to the Sin-Eaters themselves now... Would it fair to say that they are simply a fetter/anchor for a Geist to escape the Underworld and be a part of the land of the living again?
      Got a thing about that, actually:
      Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
      A Geist would be a mid-high Rank ghost which went for Influence over a thematic form of death, and picked up the Manifestation that lets it make a Sin-Eater.

      That Manifestation isn't written up, and might not be even if Geist ever gets a GMC update, but that's the design intention. Think of it as a cross, mechanically, between Claim and the Strix "Synthesis" power, which is the one the owls use to "embrace" new vampires. Sin-Eaters aren't "ghost Claimed" - they're a major template, not a minor one - but that's the general notion.
      ‚Äč
      I think there's something more to them than simply wanting a meat-suit, because if that was the case they wouldn't seem so angered when the Sin-Eater causes a sin to Synergy and drops it. They don't want to have a bond with one of the Wretched. I know acting within a Threshold or having a ghost Pass On boosts their Plasm, the latter being a nice little reward to not simply punch a ghost to the Underworld (or destroying them, which pisses the Geist off for obvious reasons), whilst taking plasm from a Deathmask seems to be a sin against Synergy, for some reason.
      Synergy seems likely to get treated similarly to Harmony in 2e; getting closer to death puts you nearer to the 0 end, and that's explicit in the text of a lot of discord triggers.

      Another thing I don't understand (which may be to do with the wording within the book) about high-level Psyche is, if their connection to death energy is so sensitive (which to me reads they can pick it up and react to it much easier), then why the need to go to the Underworld to keep the connection strong? I'd say that would be more for someone with less control of the plasm within them, right? I get it's a mechanical thing to have a con for higher Power-stat, same as all the lines have something, but I'm not clicking with it...
      Plasm is a binding agent and larger constructions tend to be easier to fuck up structurally. The Underworld both provides a potential drip-feed of the stuff and has more permissive laws of physics.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #18
        I dunno about Synergy sins coming from the Sin-Eater going against spreading the idea of the Geist or doing what it wants to be done now it's up top-side properly. The main Synergy sins are for destroying things related to death, sure (along with bringing the dead back)... But not something like saying 'No' to your Geist. Infact going about and spreading death en masse are hefty Synergy sins, only a single specific planned murder avoids the Synergy sins. Do it as a serial spree or a mass killing, then the Geist is gonna be pissed. Keep doing it and it's a quick way to end up as one of the Wretched, past the Sin-Eater trying to kill themselves or the Geist they're bound to. I get the idea of the Geist trying to keep it's Influence alive as a kind of pseudo-anchor, though the mechanics do not support it as a notion, really.

        I reminded myself Geists are annoyed by taking Plasm from a Deathmask mainly because Deathmasks are the 'corpses' of other Geist.

        Having the Sin-Eater become somewhat more ghost-like themself and feeling the pull of the Underworld from being more sensitive to the ways of death makes alot of sense for why they need to pop down there every now and then at higher Psyche levels. I don't think it was written so well in Core, perhaps that's something Geist v2 can sort out, if it happens to come out.

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        • #19
          Well, if the pants dont fit, you get a new pair of pants. If your local shop dont sell any pants you like, you make some yourself.
          In Geists case, I generally try to homebrew alot of mechanics in an attempt to make the mechanics alot in line with the thematic focus. I think we can all agree that Geists mechanics got borked somewhere along production, but I still feel like the thematic focus and fluff stuff is some of the strongest in WoD. Therefor, I dont think we should nessesarily contrain ourselves by saying "The mechanics dont support it", as a means to justify why a thing cant be as suggested.

          If I was to try to justify the "mass killings is a Synergy trigger" along the lines of my previous "Geister are death-gods/death-ideas" kinda thing, I would say that stems from the discord between the part of the Geist thats still human. Even if the Geist has become an amalgamation between a dead-man and an idea, that dead-man still has a certain degreee of morality left. He might not be overly happy with ruthlessly killing an entire family, because one of them stepped on your shoes in line to the shopping mall.
          However, if the Geist agrees that its a good idea, and its in line with the Geist nature as a Death god/idea, then I dont see why you couldn't carry over the "Changing Morality Code" from Hunter, to reflect the Sin-Eater and Geist comming to a closer understanding of each other, albietly to the detriment of the Sin-Eaters humanity.
          I've already implemented this system in my own Geist game, and it was recieved rather positively.

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          • #20
            Tbh, as things are developing, if Geist does it's second edition, I see Synergy being changed or better explained to show the degree of Flesh and Ghost, likely in a similar manner to Werewolf second edition.

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