Oblivion, the Tempest, and the nWoD

[MrParaduo]

I'm trying to introduce the Tempest, and Oblivion, using stuff I read from the Book of the Dead supplement. This is all I've got so far, but I'm trying to figure out if deathlords would be akin to the Neverborn, or how to handle both spectres and wraiths (self-aware ghosts) being in the Underworld. Any ideas?

• "Tableaux" (pg. 104) are synonymous with Harrowings

• The Autocthonous Depths = The Labyrinth, and contains both wraith and spectre alike. Harrowings occur here, though small communes of the former develop near the Rivers. Spectres care little for these wraiths (unless participating in a harrowing) since they're already trapped in the Underworld. Better to drag more down from the Tempest that they might see Oblivion all the sooner.

• The Rivers of the Underworld start in the Tempest, but only acquire special properties upon reaching the Great Below.

• The Dead Dominions act as perverse havens for the dead. In exchange for the safety offered by kerberoi, they suffer the Old Laws and the spite of any other departed that dwell within.(?)

• Dead Dominions = The Far Shores?

• Geists = Plasmic Entities?

• Psychopomps = ghosts of mundane animals

[Vent0]

Pretty sure Ghosts are already self-aware in the Underworld as one of the key things about ghosts in the Underworld. The repeaters are mere Rank 1-2 ghost still bound to Anchors. They "wake up" upon hitting the Great Below, and can start rising in Rank.

[MrParaduo]

Pretty sure Ghosts are already self-aware in the Underworld as one of the key things about ghosts in the Underworld. The repeaters are mere Rank 1-2 ghost still bound to Anchors. They "wake up" upon hitting the Great Below, and can start rising in Rank.

Good to know.

[MrParaduo]

But again, how would you handle deathlords, or kerberoi, if using Wraith terminology and concepts?

[Vent0]

I can't help there: I know very little about Wraith.

Kereberoi are super-Geists in charge of the Old Laws in a Dead Dominion (and considered Rank 6+ Ghosts in 2ed). Deathlords are name dropped, but never explicitly listed. They occupy the same position as high ranked (7+) spirits and gods.

Does that help?

---

Wraiths have a Shadow whispering to them, right? Inferno has Demonic Whisperers that can infect ghosts too. Maybe something similar to that for Shadows?

[Dreaminggod]

Deathlords and Kereberoi are the equivalents to the rulers of the various Stygian realms. I'm not sure WtO has the equivalent, but I think they are a concept that fits with the mythology of the realm of the dead. I'd keep the Dominions and make Stygia of WtO it's own, large, Dead Dominion.

[Stupid Loserman]

But again, how would you handle deathlords, or kerberoi, if using Wraith terminology and concepts?

The deathlords are so ambiguously defined and rumored in current Geist material that you might as well just overwrite them with the deathlords of Wraith.

Kerberoi you don't need to define. Nobody's old enough to know a time before the kerberoi. They might be impossibly old ghosts from times before history, grown powerful and alien as the world has moved on past their time and they have grown less and less relevant to anything except the Dead Dominions. They might be cthonians and minor Neverborn rising up from the Great Below on missions of obscure significance. Undoubtedly at least some ghosts suspect that the kerberoi serve Oblivion. If they do, though, it's in a pretty roundabout way.

Your idea for the dead dominions as perverse havens in the Underworld is a good one. To reinforce it, weaken the Hierarchy. The deathlords of the dark kingdoms and the lawmakers of the dead dominions exist in an uneasy truce. The kerberoi have strange ambitions and strange ideological priorities, such that they're usually content to leave the dark kingdoms alone, so long as the dark kingdoms do not interfere in their rule of their domains. The dark kingdoms are greater in cohesion than any individual dead dominion, but are fenced in by too many of them to treat them as lands to be conquered. They mostly come to blows when a band of heretics or rebels flees into a dominion and uses it as a staging ground from which to undermine the Hierarchy.

[MrParaduo]

The deathlords are so ambiguously defined and rumored in current Geist material that you might as well just overwrite them with the deathlords of Wraith.

Kerberoi you don't need to define. Nobody's old enough to know a time before the kerberoi. They might be impossibly old ghosts from times before history, grown powerful and alien as the world has moved on past their time and they have grown less and less relevant to anything except the Dead Dominions. They might be cthonians and minor Neverborn rising up from the Great Below on missions of obscure significance. Undoubtedly at least some ghosts suspect that the kerberoi serve Oblivion. If they do, though, it's in a pretty roundabout way.

Your idea for the dead dominions as perverse havens in the Underworld is a good one. To reinforce it, weaken the Hierarchy. The deathlords of the dark kingdoms and the lawmakers of the dead dominions exist in an uneasy truce. The kerberoi have strange ambitions and strange ideological priorities, such that they're usually content to leave the dark kingdoms alone, so long as the dark kingdoms do not interfere in their rule of their domains. The dark kingdoms are greater in cohesion than any individual dead dominion, but are fenced in by too many of them to treat them as lands to be conquered. They mostly come to blows when a band of heretics or rebels flees into a dominion and uses it as a staging ground from which to undermine the Hierarchy.

I like it.

Deathlords and Kereberoi are the equivalents to the rulers of the various Stygian realms. I'm not sure WtO has the equivalent, but I think they are a concept that fits with the mythology of the realm of the dead. I'd keep the Dominions and make Stygia of WtO it's own, large, Dead Dominion.

Ooooh... where do we start?

[MrParaduo]

Also, I'm half tempted to make HQs for each of the Guilds (except maybe Puppeteers, since that may prove detrimental). Should I make them into Dead Dominions, or something akin to "verges" in the Tempest? (The Tempest including the Shadowlands, but not called that because it'd confuse people. What with the Shadow being a place in the nWoD...).

[MrParaduo]

As for Stygia, here's what I've gotten so far:

Kerberos: Charon

Getting there
All ferrymen know how to reach Stygia. Those that follow the River Lethe, and have drank of its waters, are more likely to find it by sheer luck than anyone else.

Description
Resting atop a mist-covered island, where the River Lethe splits into the Rivers of Woe and Lamentation, Stygia is home to countless wraiths, each--

Pending...

The Old Laws
• No shade may penetrate the Veil between Life and Death
• No shade may engage in congress with those yet to pass over
• No shade may harm, hinder, harass, or compel the living to do one’s bidding
• No faction may take of another’s duty
• All who leave, must one day return

Geography
In truth, Stygia is an archipelago rather than a singular island. The bulk of the City is built atop the seven hills that comprise the Isle of Sorrows, which overlooks the sea stretching from behind it. Smaller islands are bridged together, acting as distinct communities and neighborhoods.
The Isle of Sorrows
The central landmass of Stygia, the Isle of Sorrows is thus named for the rivers that both flank and flow through it at all times. Outside the city’s walls, a constant mist permeates the air, often mingling the effects of the two Rivers upon any who breathe or preside too long therein. The ground is rocky, often hinting at veins of raw iron left exposed to the elements.

Risk & Reward

Pending...

Bit Players

Pending...


EDIT: I considered the option of whether the Deathlords are still around, and whether or not to have the "Thrones" of the Legions now under the control of one of the surviving Guilds. The idea of 13 factions maintaining a city of the dead actually sounds exciting, especially if it's like MTG Ravnica, or D&D's Sigil, with the Lady of Pain now replaced with a silent Charon.

[Dataweaver]

You briefly mentioned the Tempest in the first post, but not since then. In Wraith, the Tempest surrounded Stygia, and you had to pass through it to go anywhere in the Underworld. It's part of why the Ferrymen were called that.

You've already mentioned that you're equating the nWod's Underworld with the oWoD's Labyrinth, a place that existed beneath the Tempest, and that the Rivers flow from the Tempest. It's also a well known fact that in the nWoD, portals to the Underworld (called "Avernian Gates") are generally found in low places,and tend to go down from there. Meanwhile, oWoD's portals to the Underworld (called "Nihils") could open anywhere, and lead directly into the Tempest rather than leading “underground”.

There's also the Death Cycle that nWoD's mummies experience; but the highly personalized nature of that trek makes me suspect that it might be “all in his head” and not any sort of shared geography. I might be wrong, though.

So how about this: these two things coexist. The Tempest exists on the “surface” of the Underworld; you can reach it from the living world via a Nihil, or from the Underworld by following a River upstream. The Underworld exists “below” the Tempest; you can reach it from the living world via an Avernian Gate, or from the Tempest by finding the entrance to a River, akin to finding an entrance to the Labyrinth in Wraith. MtC's Death Cycles might be a “dry land” counterpart to the Tempest, or not.

[MrParaduo]

You briefly mentioned the Tempest in the first post, but not since then. In Wraith, the Tempest surrounded Stygia, and you had to pass through it to go anywhere in the Underworld. It's part of why the Ferrymen were called that.

You've already mentioned that you're equating the nWod's Underworld with the oWoD's Labyrinth, a place that existed beneath the Tempest, and that the Rivers flow from the Tempest. It's also a well known fact that in the nWoD, portals to the Underworld (called "Avernian Gates") are generally found in low places,and tend to go down from there. Meanwhile, oWoD's portals to the Underworld (called "Nihils") could open anywhere, and lead directly into the Tempest rather than leading “underground”.

There's also the Death Cycle that nWoD's mummies experience; but the highly personalized nature of that trek makes me suspect that it might be “all in his head” and not any sort of shared geography. I might be wrong, though.

So how about this: these two things coexist. The Tempest exists on the “surface” of the Underworld; you can reach it from the living world via a Nihil, or from the Underworld by following a River upstream. The Underworld exists “below” the Tempest; you can reach it from the living world via an Avernian Gate, or from the Tempest by finding the entrance to a River, akin to finding an entrance to the Labyrinth in Wraith. MtC's Death Cycles might be a “dry land” counterpart to the Tempest, or not.

I thought that's what I'd suggested.

[MrParaduo]

New question: should kerberoi have access to Arcanoi? Or should that be reserved for creatures that have access to the Tempest?

[Dreaminggod]

If you run it using the NWoD system, Arcanoi would either be Manifestations/Numina or Keys.

[MrParaduo]

Well, I did write up a homebrew project that converted Wraith to the nWoD. Whether people think it's worth using, I can't say much.

MP's nWoD Wraith: http://calloftea.com/forum/index.php?board=269.0