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Sin Eaters vs Moros Mages

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  • Sin Eaters vs Moros Mages

    This might be better in the Mage area (or even in both for perspective), but I've recently started to read the 2e Mage book. I'm really enjoying it so far, but can anyone tell me, in their opinion, where does a Moros Mage (with a real focus on the necromancy angle) differ from a Sin Eater? What roles do they fill that differ them from each other?

  • #2
    The most obvious one is that — well, y'know that notice in the Honorary Rank Attainment that serves as part of the ways the Thyrsus differ from werewolves in their dealings with the Shadow that Dave mentioned back during Mage 2e's Open Development?
    The Moros are further removed from the Underworld than that, and Sin-Eaters are attached at the soul to something as close to a native as a vaguely-humanlike entity gets.


    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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    • #3
      A lot of the things a Moros has to spell cast and risk Paradox on is stuff that a Sin-Eater wishes he could just turn off for a good night's sleep, so there's that.


      Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
      Working on:Night Horrors: Enemy Action
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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      • #4
        Moros have a focus on death and material powers with their arcana, while sin-eaters have two schools of magic like Nature and Illusion, and get their death magic innately from their template abilities or merits. Sin-Eaters don't require time to prepare, they don't have to deal with hiding their powers, they can enter the underworld with only a tiny amount of plasm rather than needing high-power magic, they can see ghosts all the time rather than having to detect "Oh something magic happened, I should focus my mage sight", instead of "I should use my godlike power wisely" their morality stat is "How well do I work with the eldritch abomination that is merged with my soul?"

        Sin-eaters come back from the dead if they die....
        Last edited by milo v3; 05-11-2016, 05:32 PM.

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        • #5
          A potential comparison (with some holes, admittedly): Moros use Necromancy, Sin-Eaters are Necromancy.


          Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
          Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
            A potential comparison (with some holes, admittedly): Moros use Necromancy, Sin-Eaters are Necromancy.
            That, and Moros Necromancy is an elegant occult science that has come into existence through thousands of years of collective research and damn near religious introspection on what magic means to the mages, and the implications thereof. It's experimentation, but it's experimentation that also relies on time tested symbolism and is for the most part, equally reliable.

            On the other end, Sin-Eater Necromancy is more of "I'm going to get really drunk, haphazardly take some sugar skulls and arrange them in a circle while I chant the names of 13 death gods from around the world as Evil Dead plays in the background." , and poof: There you have your Avernian gate, or your zombies, or your newly shackled ghost-in-a-fetter or whatever. I personally like this method way better, as it is just another piece of evidence that Sin-Eaters are the Orks of CotD XD

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            • #7
              Moros are detectives who investigate the mysteries of death.

              Sin-Eaters are scavengers who pick at the bones of the dead for things of value that others cannot see the worth of.


              “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
              My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
              Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                Moros are detectives who investigate the mysteries of death.

                Sin-Eaters are scavengers who pick at the bones of the dead for things of value that others cannot see the worth of.
                Only a fourth of them though.

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                • #9
                  Something I've found when looking at Mage overlap with other characters' niches: Mages make for fantastic antagonists for other game lines in their ability to muck with forces they don't understand nearly as intimately but still have tremendous power over, and thus create all sorts of messes others have to deal with - a Death Mage for Sin-Eaters, a Fate-Mage for Changelings, & a Spirit-Mage for Werewolves being the big obvious examples.


                  Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Korogra View Post

                    Only a fourth of them though.
                    "All" Sin-Eaters are scavengers in the way "all" Mages are academic investigator types.


                    “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                    My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                    Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                      Sin-Eaters are scavengers who pick at the bones of the dead for things of value that others cannot see the worth of.
                      Sort of necromantic wombles. Also, they make mages tear their hair out, because wombles as a concept is something that sineaters might be able to parley into power.

                      In a way, sineaters get the "belief makes magic" vibe from Mage the Ascension. But the beliefs aren't (usually) complete worldviews - they're the ideological leftovers and dusty corners that most adherents of said belief wouldn't think about. The psychological, intellectual, and spiritual equivalents of the dead remains and physical detritus they use of their magic items.

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                      • #12
                        I wouldn't use the Ascension comparison though. In Ascension belief defines what is true, if enough people believe that the sky is green it will always have been green.

                        In Sin-Eater belief doesn't change what's true, but belief is true in of itself. In the sense that "I think this painting looks beautiful" is a true statement.


                        So a Catholic Ascension Mage might be able to use the last rights because he believes that they have genuine occult power, and that means the rites have genuine occult power. A Sin-Eater would use the last rights because people, maybe not him, believes that they have a strong meaning and the Sin-Eater can use that belief as fuel for a Ceremony.

                        (Even if the people who believe it are all dead; these are Sin-Eaters we're talking about. And stuff from long dead cultures is obscure, which makes you look hip and cool to the other Bound)


                        “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                        My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                        Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                          "All" Sin-Eaters are scavengers in the way "all" Mages are academic investigator types.
                          Yeah.. but a fourth of them literally have that as their Archetypes XD

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                            I wouldn't use the Ascension comparison though. In Ascension belief defines what is true, if enough people believe that the sky is green it will always have been green.

                            In Sin-Eater belief doesn't change what's true, but belief is true in of itself. In the sense that "I think this painting looks beautiful" is a true statement.


                            So a Catholic Ascension Mage might be able to use the last rights because he believes that they have genuine occult power, and that means the rites have genuine occult power. A Sin-Eater would use the last rights because people, maybe not him, believes that they have a strong meaning and the Sin-Eater can use that belief as fuel for a Ceremony.

                            (Even if the people who believe it are all dead; these are Sin-Eaters we're talking about. And stuff from long dead cultures is obscure, which makes you look hip and cool to the other Bound)
                            True, but as a Krewe grows stronger and their mythos and ethos more defined, what is true in the "Beautiful painting " sense starts to become true in " Our ways shape the facts about death until our krewe breaks apart" sense. This isn't the same sort of change as Mage Ascensions make, but it is reality warping on a more subtle level.

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                            • #15
                              I never saw it that way.

                              I saw it more along the lines of "this is a beautiful painting of Abraham Lincoln". If you went to some uncontacted Amazonian Tribes people and tried to tell them that this painting of Lincoln symbolises Freedom they wouldn't understand you at all.

                              Show it to any American and they'd know that before you even said it. (Or they'd be able to explain why they disagree, which is just as good). But show them a picture of William Lloyd Garrison and they probably wouldn't know who that is. Unless I just slipped up and displayed my non-Americanness. *shrug*


                              A Sin-Eater creating a new Ceremony is like an artist creating a beautiful painting. A Krewe is like a culture defining standards of beauty. They don't change the facts, a culture that thinks glasses are sexy isn't going to magically make people's vision worse, or somehow change the physics of light. It's still only working in the realm of the subjective, but in a way that's both deeper and larger than an individual artist.

                              So a Krewe that says sacrificing black chickens to the Loa leads to a successful Underworld expedition hasn't actually changed the occult physics of black chickens. Instead they've created the entire framework needed to support the Ceremonial sacrifice of that chicken. In much the same way as that culture created an entire framework a woman could use to influence how the world sees her: If she wants to be seen as beautiful, she wears glasses.


                              TL;DR. A Krewe that believes sacrificing black chickens is good luck isn't changing the occult physics of chickens. They're building a force-multiplying lever. The chicken sacrifice still exerts the same force, but the lever multiplies it.
                              Last edited by The Kings Raven; 05-31-2016, 02:16 PM.


                              “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                              My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                              Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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