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Sin Eaters vs Moros Mages

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  • #16
    If the Underworld is Mount Everest, the Moros are the sponsored, rich, Western climbers who've trained for decades have thousands of dollars of equipment, anti-altitude medication, and are doing it for the experience.

    The Bound are the Sherpas. They're not as well equipped, but they live there, and will still live there after the westerners have fucked off back to their comfortable lives telling stories of their awesome experience.


    Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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    • #17
      In a different thread, I compared mages and werewolves to submarines and deep sea fish.

      In light of Dave's comment, I think that idea works here too. Hell, it works in comparison to Mages and most anything else.


      Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
      Working on:The Hedge
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Kino's Journey

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
        If the Underworld is Mount Everest, the Moros are the sponsored, rich, Western climbers who've trained for decades have thousands of dollars of equipment, anti-altitude medication, and are doing it for the experience.

        The Bound are the Sherpas. They're not as well equipped, but they live there, and will still live there after the westerners have fucked off back to their comfortable lives telling stories of their awesome experience.

        To expand the comparison, would that make Beasts like westerners who go to Mt. Everest and try to learn to live like the Sherpas do. They'll never be quite the same, never quite get everything quite so instinctively as the people who've lived there their whole lives, but they try.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          In a different thread, I compared mages and werewolves to submarines and deep sea fish.

          In light of Dave's comment, I think that idea works here too. Hell, it works in comparison to Mages and most anything else.
          Mage: A storytelling game of pride and privilege :P

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Morangias View Post
            Mage: A storytelling game of pride and privilege :P
            Mage Privilege? Fallen World Problems?


            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              If the Underworld is Mount Everest, the Moros are the sponsored, rich, Western climbers who've trained for decades have thousands of dollars of equipment, anti-altitude medication, and are doing it for the experience.

              The Bound are the Sherpas. They're not as well equipped, but they live there, and will still live there after the westerners have fucked off back to their comfortable lives telling stories of their awesome experience.

              Like I said, the fact that Mages get more power (in many ways) with less intimacy with the forces they have power-over, makes them fantastic crossover antagonists!


              Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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              • #22
                The mage storyteller's guide should really go into things that Mages might do in the Underworld or Shadow that will get the local splat angry at them and make that sweet drama.


                “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                  I never saw it that way.

                  I saw it more along the lines of "this is a beautiful painting of Abraham Lincoln". If you went to some uncontacted Amazonian Tribes people and tried to tell them that this painting of Lincoln symbolises Freedom they wouldn't understand you at all.

                  Show it to any American and they'd know that before you even said it. (Or they'd be able to explain why they disagree, which is just as good). But show them a picture of William Lloyd Garrison and they probably wouldn't know who that is. Unless I just slipped up and displayed my non-Americanness. *shrug*


                  A Sin-Eater creating a new Ceremony is like an artist creating a beautiful painting. A Krewe is like a culture defining standards of beauty. They don't change the facts, a culture that thinks glasses are sexy isn't going to magically make people's vision worse, or somehow change the physics of light. It's still only working in the realm of the subjective, but in a way that's both deeper and larger than an individual artist.

                  So a Krewe that says sacrificing black chickens to the Loa leads to a successful Underworld expedition hasn't actually changed the occult physics of black chickens. Instead they've created the entire framework needed to support the Ceremonial sacrifice of that chicken. In much the same way as that culture created an entire framework a woman could use to influence how the world sees her: If she wants to be seen as beautiful, she wears glasses.


                  TL;DR. A Krewe that believes sacrificing black chickens is good luck isn't changing the occult physics of chickens. They're building a force-multiplying lever. The chicken sacrifice still exerts the same force, but the lever multiplies it.
                  Until a Krewe decides that the fact that unsexy glasses are a component of a Ceremony used to curse someone.. then boom, blindness happens ( either spiritual or physical, doesn't matter, being a death of one's senses either way lol) XD.

                  And it does change the occult physics of black chickens - for that Krewe or any Sin-Eaters who decide to co-opt the Ceremony for themselves. Just because it doesn't do the same for other splats doesn't mean it doesn't occur period. Force Multiplier or not.. it's still magically affecting the world when it logically shouldn't from a Mage or other occult scholar's perspective - almost a warping of reality a bit. So you are right, but not entirely right, least that's how I see it- and it's an equally valid viewpoint to yours- both of our views are "right" .

                  You seem to have missed my Ork comparison, but that's okay lol. Orks are a good way to explain how the Bound's trash-bag magic works even though it really shouldn't though xD
                  Last edited by Korogra; 06-03-2016, 08:16 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                    The mage storyteller's guide should really go into things that Mages might do in the Underworld or Shadow that will get the local splat angry at them and make that sweet drama.
                    Yeah we get a franchise of supernatural shadow war films that get progressively bad as they go on

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                      If the Underworld is Mount Everest, the Moros are the sponsored, rich, Western climbers who've trained for decades have thousands of dollars of equipment, anti-altitude medication, and are doing it for the experience.

                      The Bound are the Sherpas. They're not as well equipped, but they live there, and will still live there after the westerners have fucked off back to their comfortable lives telling stories of their awesome experience.
                      If we are using the Mount Everest analogy, is it also fair to say that the Mages die in droves in comparison to the native peoples, the sherpas who die regularly, but less often due to not being stupid?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Korogra View Post
                        If we are using the Mount Everest analogy, is it also fair to say that the Mages die in droves in comparison to the native peoples, the sherpas who die regularly, but less often due to not being stupid?
                        I'd say if the Sin-Eaters do die less often than mages upon encountering Underworld-related phenomena, it has less to do with them being smarter and/or more savvy, and more to do with how insanely survivable they are.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                          I'd say if the Sin-Eaters do die less often than mages upon encountering Underworld-related phenomena, it has less to do with them being smarter and/or more savvy, and more to do with how insanely survivable they are.
                          Plus, they have a partner with them at all times who could arguably be considered something of an expert. And means to interact with Twilight innate via Reverse Possession.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by malonkey1 View Post
                            Plus, they have a partner with them at all times who could arguably be considered something of an expert. And means to interact with Twilight innate via Reverse Possession.
                            With the new Attainment system, interacting with Twilight is about as easy for a Death-focused mage as reverse possession is for a Sin-Eater, so I'd no longer count that as an advantage.

                            Having a "native guide" with you at all times is certainly a boon, but it's not like a Moros can't consult multiple Underworld denizens on any matter of import. Which may be even better, because a Sin-Eater is somewhat inclined to trust her Geist over other possible sources of information, while a mage is usually inclined to not trust supernatural beings, and cross-checking your info is never a bad idea in the hostile territory.

                            Seriously, this Mt Everest analogy works in that it signifies a degree of removal that mages experience compared to Sin-Eaters, but I wouldn't extrapolate it onto any statements about the relative competence of either party or some inherent superiority of one group's approach over the other's, because that's where the analogy starts falling apart. At the end of the day, both can climb the mountain and either can die in the process.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Morangias View Post
                              With the new Attainment system, interacting with Twilight is about as easy for a Death-focused mage as reverse possession is for a Sin-Eater, so I'd no longer count that as an advantage.

                              Having a "native guide" with you at all times is certainly a boon, but it's not like a Moros can't consult multiple Underworld denizens on any matter of import. Which may be even better, because a Sin-Eater is somewhat inclined to trust her Geist over other possible sources of information, while a mage is usually inclined to not trust supernatural beings, and cross-checking your info is never a bad idea in the hostile territory.

                              Seriously, this Mt Everest analogy works in that it signifies a degree of removal that mages experience compared to Sin-Eaters, but I wouldn't extrapolate it onto any statements about the relative competence of either party or some inherent superiority of one group's approach over the other's, because that's where the analogy starts falling apart. At the end of the day, both can climb the mountain and either can die in the process.
                              Perhaps, and in some cases that is absolutely true. But on average, I still believe the typical Moros is far less equipped than the typical Sin-Eater when it comes with dealing with the Underworld.

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