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  • #16
    Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
    ​I also noticed that Fallen Blossoms gave away the secret of Nakatomi and it has little in common with the modern myths and does a 180 from the Hierarch's claims. That means his copy of Nakatomi's rules is truly fake.
    I must missed that on my read - could you point me to the quote on the matter? Also, if Mystery is solved in Edo, it should be also solved in XXI century. Mages of all Eras have Time Arcanum, don't they?


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    • #17
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Also, if Mystery is solved in Edo, it should be also solved in XXI century. Mages of all Eras have Time Arcanum, don't they?
      Well, considering that affecting the past, which includes seeing into it, requires temporal sympathy to that period of time, and since temporal sympathy grows weaker the further you go back to the past...... I'd say that modern mages actually have a harder time figuring out what really happened in the distant past, more than mages of Edo.


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      • #18
        But two things are in consideration:
        1. From Edo Era to XXI century are circa 500 years of mages researchs. Athenea are always working in those times - Time mages in each generation can cast spells to assess their lore on Nakatomi and write on topics.
        2. All you need to see in XXI century to Edo period is samurai armor or older scroll to use Temporal Sympathy. You will not told me that in any Japan Athenea is not storage any one of those items and sustained to modern times with Matter or Time magic.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          But two things are in consideration:
          1. From Edo Era to XXI century are circa 500 years of mages researchs. Athenea are always working in those times - Time mages in each generation can cast spells to assess their lore on Nakatomi and write on topics.
          Records can be lost or contaminated, and duties can be forsaken or set aside. And if the current Hierarch and his ruling party benefit from obscured history, then they certainly will obscure history.

          2. All you need to see in XXI century to Edo period is samurai armor or older scroll to use Temporal Sympathy. You will not told me that in any Japan Athenea is not storage any one of those items and sustained to modern times with Matter or Time magic.
          Yes, but low are the chances that the relics the local Consilium possess happen to be directly related to the issue they want to scry, and lower are the chances that they were not contaminated. Magical work is still human work, and humans are fallible beings.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
            Records can be lost or contaminated, and duties can be forsaken or set aside. And if the current Hierarch and his ruling party benefit from obscured history, then they certainly will obscure history.
            It would need then to wipe out all knowledge of Nakatomi from all Edo/Tokyo mages in area ( and probably most of Japan, as I assume the rest of country would know who is Hierarch of capital / and first Consillium / at the time ). Unless he takes a few dozens of Logophages at constant clearing of minds for whole generation to go for the Mystery as described in 2E corebook setting write up - I do not see very much this.

            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
            Yes, but low are the chances that the relics the local Consilium possess happen to be directly related to the issue they want to scry, and lower are the chances that they were not contaminated. Magical work is still human work, and humans are fallible beings.
            You do not need items directly related to Scry - you need item to exists in the same time period only. One Time mage casts Temporal Sympathy on Edo period item, then Space mage casts Spatial Sympathy on Tokyo area, to locate the Scrying Window. Tad-dam, we have direct events feed on creation of Edo Consilium and can see what Nakatomi was doing in there!
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-05-2017, 08:56 AM.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              It would need then to wipe out all knowledge of Nakatomi from all Edo/Tokyo mages in area ( and probably most of Japan, as I assume the rest of country would know who is Hierarch of capital / and first Consillium / at the time ). Unless he takes a few dozens of Logophages at constant clearing of minds for whole generation to go for the Mystery as described in 2E corebook setting write up - I do not see very much this.
              * looks at the current Japanese right-wing government's attempts to edit out parts of their history where they were war criminals who collaborated with the Nazis and committed atrocities such as mass enslavement, forced conscription, military sex slaves, human experimentation and such

              There's no need for a full scale mind wipe to corrupt the truth. You only need a few records conveniently missing, a few witnesses willing or 'willing' to be silent, a good PR and political standing... the rest of the work will be done by ignorance of the future generations and inertia of established knowledge.

              Because it is human nature to distance oneself from the past. There's a reason why the past is harder to sympathize with, just like how it's harder to sympathize with distant locations.

              You do not need items directly related to Scry - you need item to exists in the same time period only. One Time mage casts Temporal Sympathy on Edo period item, then Space mage casts Spatial Sympathy on Tokyo area, to locate the Scrying Window. Tad-dam, we have direct events feed on creation of Edo Consilium and can see what Nakatomi was doing in there!
              So, a combined casting of Scrying and Postcognition, augmented with the Temporal Sympathy Attainment? That... huh. Could actually work.

              Still, I'm not sure whether the Edo mages of the past will just let a Scrying window from the future snoop on them, considering how time travelers are said to be rarely trusted. Nor will I be confident on whether what I'm seeing isn't a false vision planted by mages in the past or present, or not.


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                So, a combined casting of Scrying and Postcognition, augmented with the Temporal Sympathy Attainment? That... huh. Could actually work.

                Still, I'm not sure whether the Edo mages of the past will just let a Scrying window from the future snoop on them, considering how time travelers are said to be rarely trusted. Nor will I be confident on whether what I'm seeing isn't a false vision planted by mages in the past or present, or not.
                Or perhaps the reason that this is such goddamn big mystery in modern Tokyo is that all attempts to use this trick fail. Not that the trick is a bad one, but that something prevents it and causes the beacons to trigger. Almost like there is a temporal version of the Ansho around Nakatomi...

                Nothing definite, just a thought/plothook.


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                • #23
                  I will move this subtopic to separate thread in Mage forum as it is general games feature that is good to be talked extensively about - Nakatomi is just good example on this, but it works with most Mysteries.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                    Could be an example of the Shadow Name Merit, if the modern Ladder Mage learned of the history of the original and his organization he might have borrowed the symbolism of a centuries old compact that 'took power' from Vampires.
                    ​In which book might we get the whole story, eventually?
                    ​I also noticed that Fallen Blossoms gave away the secret of Nakatomi and it has little in common with the modern myths and does a 180 from the Hierarch's claims. That means his copy of Nakatomi's rules is truly fake.
                    The thearch does not run or have any power over the design of the Hototogisu. The thearch is on the board and can access some of it's resources, but the thearch is not the ghoul Inoue Akio, who is the one behind the current incarnation of the Hototogisu.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      I will move this subtopic to separate thread in Mage forum as it is general games feature that is good to be talked extensively about - Nakatomi is just good example on this, but it works with most Mysteries.
                      the only question you need to ask yourself is this- who would benefit the most from making sure Nakatomi will stay a mystery?


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                      • #26
                        Inoue is a ghoul? I don't recall reading that in either Requiem or Awakening.
                        ​Requiem describes him as a business man who discovers Vampire incursions into his businesses and those of his associates, then uses his knowledge of the occult to start a compact aimed at limiting or ending Vampire control.
                        ​Awakening lists the compact as an example of what the Silver Ladder is doing instead of fighting the Mysterium for control of the Consillium.
                        ​Does Hunter say anything about it? Does it still list the group as a Hunter Conspiracy?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                          Inoue is a ghoul? I don't recall reading that in either Requiem or Awakening.
                          ​Requiem describes him as a business man who discovers Vampire incursions into his businesses and those of his associates, then uses his knowledge of the occult to start a compact aimed at limiting or ending Vampire control.
                          ​Awakening lists the compact as an example of what the Silver Ladder is doing instead of fighting the Mysterium for control of the Consillium.
                          ​Does Hunter say anything about it? Does it still list the group as a Hunter Conspiracy?
                          Beast says hello. Lots of little nuggets hide in the Hero Bay. Akio is also, to no one's surprise, modern Tokyo's Apex.


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                          • #28
                            ^That.
                            words


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                            • #29
                              Akio is a Beast, while I'm surprised. That little nugget alone is almost enough to get me to pay the price of admission.
                              That does bring up two questions:
                              1-Could this, in some way, be the same Akio?
                              2-How many other supernaturals are part of the Friday Club?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                                Akio is a Beast, while I'm surprised. That little nugget alone is almost enough to get me to pay the price of admission.
                                That does bring up two questions:
                                1-Could this, in some way, be the same Akio?
                                2-How many other supernaturals are part of the Friday Club?
                                Akio isn't a Beast. The Apex is merely the scariest fucker in that particular Hive. There's Werewolves, Mages, and Vampires as Apexes in other areas, so while many Hives have Beasts at the Apex, they don't have to be. Akio is "just" a ghoul, although I am certain there is more to it than that.

                                With that said, the former Apex (who was a Beast) also had a court of supernaturals circa about 1869. Mages were represented by a sorceress named Nakatomi and the vampires by a Elder named Inoue. The real question is are those the same people? The answer is most likely no, but that follows up with the question of why those two names keep reappearing. It's an excellent story hook for those who are historically minded.


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