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  • #31
    While I do love Cheiron Group with a passion I'll be the first to admit they probably make more sense over in Deviant with Agents being Loyalists or Renegades.

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    • #32
      You could also say Lucifuge are straight up Deviants. Created by hell, they fight against it while demons attempt to win them over to their side again.

      There's room for overlap.

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      • #33
        That sounds like a pretty weird stretch. They don't read as created by hell from what I know of First Edition. They're descended from denizens of it. Deviant is about experiments and rituals having created them.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Monghani View Post
          That sounds like a pretty weird stretch. They don't read as created by hell from what I know of First Edition. They're descended from denizens of it. Deviant is about experiments and rituals having created them.
          Demons aren't just regular guys you meet in a club trying to hook up, if they're on Earth knocking up people, there's magic and planning involved. It's why the Lucifuge kills those potentials who refuse to side with them. Because the L'enfant Diabolique exist to promote 'the Satanic Agenda.'

          Comment


          • #35
            I always saw them as more of a Seventh Son line of descent thing, and less Hellboy in that regard. But you have a point in that regard. Although in this case your Blowout doesn't kill you. I think that's the main thing that seperates them. Deviant's endgame leads to you pushing too far and breaking while a Lucifuge pushing too far and becoming a major douche. Although with the Slasher problem it means L'enfant Diabolique is a Slasher Conspiracy bringing hell on earth like the Denarians from Dresden Files.

            Comment


            • #36
              I think one thing this system desperately needs is an "area of expertise" modifier in which different Conspiracies get free dots if an Endowment fits a certain theme. So the Malleus Maleficarum might have Area of Expertise: Vampires OO, Witches OO, Demons OO, Clerical Duties OO. (I am fully on board with some Conspiracies flat out having more Area of Expertise dots than others. The Canites for example might just have Vampires OOO)

              Thus, a Benediction that only affects vampires (e.g. it allows a Stake through the heart to bypass Resiliance) would have it's cost reduced by OO. An Endowment that boosts expression with the limitation that it only applies while preaching would get a two dot discount, but remove that limitation and you loose the discount.


              BTW, I've read it twice but I'm still not sure what exactly the purpose of making Endowments Conditions is.
              Last edited by The Kings Raven; 04-28-2017, 04:23 PM.


              “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
              My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
              Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                Tooth and Nail's endowments will take some thought, but should be doable. Mortal Remains should be fine.
                Don't forget Spirit Slayers. Les Mysteres need some love too

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                  I think one thing this system desperately needs is an "area of expertise" modifier in which different Conspiracies get free dots if an Endowment fits a certain theme. So the Malleus Maleficarum might have Area of Expertise: Vampires OO, Witches OO, Demons OO, Clerical Duties OO. (I am fully on board with some Conspiracies flat out having more Area of Expertise dots than others. The Canites for example might just have Vampires OOO)

                  Thus, a Benediction that only affects vampires (e.g. it allows a Stake through the heart to bypass Resiliance) would have it's cost reduced by OO. An Endowment that boosts expression with the limitation that it only applies while preaching would get a two dot discount, but remove that limitation and you loose the discount.

                  I think I understand what you're getting at but I would like to ask for clarification. Would it function similarly to the Ascending Ones' Reagents Concept but instead providing the Mandate of Hell's "target must be associated with X" limiter, wherein X is the Area of Expertise (at least in regards to specific supernatural beings)?


                  BTW, I've read it twice but I'm still not sure what exactly the purpose of making Endowments Conditions is.

                  The Endowments are apparently structured as Conditions, which I assume means that they are formatted to read like a Condition but function as a "Power". I believe that would be for consistency in design as the game moves onto 2E and needs to adopt their rules-set, including the addition of the Beat system and the Conditions system. Notably, only Indefinite Duration Endowments like TFV's Lockdown Grenade grant Beats. If anything only Indefinite Endowments function as Conditions, as they "stick" with a Hunter and represent "the dark side of pushing yourself just a little outside the human envelope" (which makes me wonder about VALKYRIE).


                  Speaking of which, I mentioned in a previous post that the Concepts provide the "uniqueness" for each Conspiracy, wherein VALKYRIE's Loadout represents the fact that VALKYRIE uses weapons with ammunition or expendable resources, AO's Reagents manage what Elixirs are available, and Lucifuge's Temptation discourages constant usage of their Castigations. Notably, I keep reading the Reagents Concept, which seems to imply that Elixirs can be crafted and available as long as the Hunter has knowledge of the Elixir's recipe. In 1E, I believe that Elixirs were just potions delivered to the Hunter at the beginning of a Chapter and were limited in use. I point this out because it would seem that, given enough resources, an Ascending One in 2E could conceivably create enough Elixirs for their team to use, with the (probable) stipulation that a lack of training (read: Status merit invested) from the Ascending Ones would bestow a penalty to actually using the Elixir.

                  Granted, it is limited to resources available ("Damn it, Jim! Where are we going to find a source of stranger and powerfully toxic substances at a time like this?!"), but it feels more feasible of an idea than in 1E, which makes it feel that 2E may have a stronger focus on teamwork than 1E.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    and now, lets try adapting an whole new type of Endowments- the Rites du Cheval!

                    Endowment Concept- Possession: all of the Rites du Cheval require the hunter to let an otherworldly spirit to ride her flesh in exchange for power. For that reason, each of the hunter's Endowments has a Permission or positive Ban and a negative Ban, which represent the influence and nature the possessing spirit has over the hunter. As long as the Endowment is in effect, other spirits may not try and possess the hunter. Because of the requirement to have a spirit ridding your flesh, all Rites du Cheval are Transitory- although by taking the Ridding My Skin Condition, they may turn it into Indefinite.. at a price, of course.

                    New Condition- Ridding My Skin (Persistent)

                    You have made a pact with the spirits, giving them you flesh in exchange for power. Choose one Rite du Cheval you know. Its Duration now turns into Indefinite as long as Ridding My Skin is active. However, while that Condition is in effect, your presence triggers any senses beings may have to the spirit world, and you suffer from -1 effect for all Perception rolls unrelated to the spirit possessing you. The Les Mysteres in general also disapprove of the practice, giving you -1 for all Social rolls toward them.

                    Possible Sources: making a pact with a spirit to make one of your Rites' Duration Indefinite.

                    Resolution: fulfilling you part of the bargain and expanding a Willpower point to repel the spirit (note, the hunter may fulfill the bargain and still enjoy the Condition's benefit and downsides until she decides to shed the Condition- but as long as she didn't she can't expand the Willpower necessary to end the effect)

                    Beat: every time your bargain with the spirit leads you to trouble, get a Beat.

                    Now, after establishing the concept, let's translate a specific Endowment- for example...

                    Hands of Raphael (Keyword; Transitory, Purity)

                    When writing the Hands of Raphael, I discovered that the current Keywords seem to not include effects which allow the hunter to heal others. In order to solve that, I've made a new Keyword, Purity, which is meant to include all kinds of effects which terminate negative effects or heal damage, be them mundane (like poison) or supernatural (like curses). While I assume Scourge may be interpreted in a way which includes such effects, making a new Keyword feels more appropriate.

                    As for the Endowment itself, we start with the effect itself. Healing diseases may be considered a powerful effect- causing a Persistent Tilt is Value of 4, and so removing it should be equivalent. The amount of Health healed by the Endowment then should be proportional to that effect. In order to balance it, we give it a Major Sacrifice, dropping its Value to 1. A Status Prerequisite of 3, which is following the source material, would move it to -2, and that before having a negative Ban. In order to keep it simple, we'll take a -1 equivalent Ban, going to -3, and then give a moderate positive Ban of +2, and a Willpower cost of 1 finally ends up in 0.


                    The hunter calls upon spirits of health and protection to grant him the healing touch so many shamans and holy men claim to have yet most lack. Raphael, Isis, Apollo, Arimed and Loco all may offer their help to the shaman, banishing sickness with a weave of their hand and mending wounded flesh as if it was clay. However, such gifts are not given for free, and the gods and angels who are not paid respectfully end up turning upon the rude shaman and turn their blessing into curse.

                    Effects

                    • Action: the shaman must spend half a hour in undisturbed prayer or chanting to the spirits, all by herself in a closed room lit only by sunlight; afterward, he gains an healing touch for the next hour. The healing itself requires expanding a Willpower point.

                    Lay of Hands: [Wits + Medicine]; by directing the healing energy of the spirit world, you can mend wounds and save lives.

                    Roll Results

                    Success:
                    you manage to channel the spiritual energy, healing 4 points of lethal damage.

                    Exceptional:
                    the ecstasy of divine power rushing through you is exhilarating, giving you back the spent Willpower point.

                    Failure:
                    the gods has judges you unworthy of their power. Nothing happens.

                    Dramatic:
                    you have disappointed the spirits, and they have decided to leave you behind. The Endowment is terminated immediately. Better pray again to prove yourself worthy.

                    Banish the Plague Demon: [Wits + Medicine] with -2 modifier for moderate and -3 for grave; by touching someone suffering for the Sick Tilt who does not suffer from any damage, the hunter can call upon the spirit to banish the disease from his body.

                    Roll Results

                    Success:
                    you remove the Sick Tilt from the target

                    Exceptional:
                    the ecstasy of divine power rushing through you is exhilarating, giving you back the spent Willpower point.

                    Failure:
                    the darkness of the plague proves itself equal to your patrons. Nothing happens.

                    Dramatic:
                    You have fought the demons in the target's body and lost. They now suffer from one point of Bashing damage as their sickness is triggered.

                    Ban: you can't be infected.
                    Ban: you can't intentionally harm someone as long as they don't try to harm you first.
                    End: you feel the spirit leaving you body and see its face as it bids goodbye. It may leave you a certain message, either helpful, threatening or even just a regular "pleasure to work with you", depends on your relationship with the spirit.

                    Prerequisites
                    • Prerequisite: Les Mysteres Status (ooo)

                    Endowment Source: initiation by the Les Mysteres.
                    Last edited by LostLight; 04-28-2017, 05:56 PM.


                    Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                    I now blog in here

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                      BTW, I've read it twice but I'm still not sure what exactly the purpose of making Endowments Conditions is.
                      I can't say for sure, but I think that it is in order to either give all Endowment a shared, basic mechanic, get rid of the regular dot ranking which Supernatural Merits has, and/or avoid the whole "Endowments are just merits, so why can't everyone have them" thing. I must say, while working on conversion, the system does feel different, making it into something more in the style of "low sorcery" than shiny things you have, IMO.


                      Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                      "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                      I now blog in here

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Reaper Verse View Post
                        I think I understand what you're getting at but I would like to ask for clarification. Would it function similarly to the Ascending Ones' Reagents Concept but instead providing the Mandate of Hell's "target must be associated with X" limiter, wherein X is the Area of Expertise (at least in regards to specific supernatural beings)?
                        Not exactly. I didn't intend Area of Expertise to always be tied to a limiter.

                        You mentioned The Ascending Ones so lets use them as an example for an Endowment that benefits from Area of Expertise without a limiter. I'd say their expertise is Diplomacy OO, Assassins OO.

                        So you might have an Elixir that lets you speak in the language from before the Tower of Babel:

                        Permission +2 : Speak any human language
                        Permission +1 : Speak to creatures of the Inferno
                        Permission +1 : Speak to creatures of the Empyerian
                        Limitation -2 : Regents
                        Area of Expertise -2 : Diplomacy.
                        Total: 0

                        Because speaking extra languages thematically falls under the heading of diplomacy you get the bonus. Similarly an elixir to enhance stealth falls under Assassins even if it's being used to spy and the hunter has no intent to kill anyone tonight.

                        However an Elixir that boosts your firearms skill wouldn't fall under Area of Expertise unless it also had the Limitation that it only works outside of combat; since that's the key that distingishes an assassination from a gunfight.


                        Originally posted by Reaper Verse View Post
                        In 1E, I believe that Elixirs were just potions delivered to the Hunter at the beginning of a Chapter and were limited in use.
                        Actually that does raise a question about Regents. Do they represent a bottle of completed potion, or laboratory stocked with ingredients?

                        Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                        making it into something more in the style of "low sorcery" than shiny things you have, IMO.
                        That's one of the reasons I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Advanced Armory and Relic are absolutely shiny things you have. I can't seem to grock "you have a grenade in your backpack" as a Condition.




                        “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                        My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                        Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          Another concern I have is how many example Endowments there will be. In my opinion, creative thaumaturgy works because there are enough example spells that you can play without it if you want to. If Endowments are the same way, I will be very happy to have a system for creating my own. I will not be happy if the presence of a system for creating my own endowments is used as an excuse to provide fewer than enough Endowments for a robust game using only the pre-made ones..
                          How many do you think are necessary? For CT, there are 10 arcana and 13(?) practices for a total of 130 spells needed for examples. I think there must be over 200. With 7 conspiracies and 9 keyword pairs, that puts the basic coverage number of examples to 63, around the number of endowments in the first Hunter book. I think each conspiracy having an offensive, defensive and ward endowment exemplified is the minimum, 21 total. Even better, use that as a base to provide CT level variety to bump the number to 35 to 42, but that would be more of a hope. It's subjective. I'm sure some people would prefer just to have the examples.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
                            How many do you think are necessary? For CT, there are 10 arcana and 13(?) practices for a total of 130 spells needed for examples. I think there must be over 200. With 7 conspiracies and 9 keyword pairs, that puts the basic coverage number of examples to 63, around the number of endowments in the first Hunter book. I think each conspiracy having an offensive, defensive and ward endowment exemplified is the minimum, 21 total. Even better, use that as a base to provide CT level variety to bump the number to 35 to 42, but that would be more of a hope. It's subjective. I'm sure some people would prefer just to have the examples.
                            Hard for me to judge without seeing more of the Hunter 2e system, as it's not really a matter of numbers. What matters is if you can have a satisfying game experience with only the examples.

                            I love systems that explain how the powers in the book are constructed so players and/or STs can make their own, as long as they don't need to make their own if they don't want to.

                            Again, I'm not really worried they won't provide enough example a Endowments to be satisfied. But I figured it's worth mentioning.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                              and now, lets try adapting an whole new type of Endowments- the Rites du Cheval!

                              Endowment Concept- Possession: all of the Rites du Cheval require the hunter to let an otherworldly spirit to ride her flesh in exchange for power. For that reason, each of the hunter's Endowments has a Permission or positive Ban and a negative Ban, which represent the influence and nature the possessing spirit has over the hunter. As long as the Endowment is in effect, other spirits may not try and possess the hunter. Because of the requirement to have a spirit ridding your flesh, all Rites du Cheval are Transitory- although by taking the Ridding My Skin Condition, they may turn it into Indefinite.. at a price, of course.

                              New Condition- Ridding My Skin (Persistent)

                              You have made a pact with the spirits, giving them you flesh in exchange for power. Choose one Rite du Cheval you know. Its Duration now turns into Indefinite as long as Ridding My Skin is active. However, while that Condition is in effect, your presence triggers any senses beings may have to the spirit world, and you suffer from -1 effect for all Perception rolls unrelated to the spirit possessing you. The Les Mysteres in general also disapprove of the practice, giving you -1 for all Social rolls toward them.

                              Possible Sources: making a pact with a spirit to make one of your Rites' Duration Indefinite.

                              Resolution: fulfilling you part of the bargain and expanding a Willpower point to repel the spirit (note, the hunter may fulfill the bargain and still enjoy the Condition's benefit and downsides until she decides to shed the Condition- but as long as she didn't she can't expand the Willpower necessary to end the effect)

                              Beat: every time your bargain with the spirit leads you to trouble, get a Beat.

                              Now, after establishing the concept, let's translate a specific Endowment- for example...

                              Hands of Raphael (Keyword; Transitory, Purity)

                              When writing the Hands of Raphael, I discovered that the current Keywords seem to not include effects which allow the hunter to heal others. In order to solve that, I've made a new Keyword, Purity, which is meant to include all kinds of effects which terminate negative effects or heal damage, be them mundane (like poison) or supernatural (like curses). While I assume Scourge may be interpreted in a way which includes such effects, making a new Keyword feels more appropriate.

                              As for the Endowment itself, we start with the effect itself. Healing diseases may be considered a powerful effect- causing a Persistent Tilt is Value of 4, and so removing it should be equivalent. The amount of Health healed by the Endowment then should be proportional to that effect. In order to balance it, we give it a Major Sacrifice, dropping its Value to 1. A Status Prerequisite of 3, which is following the source material, would move it to -2, and that before having a negative Ban. In order to keep it simple, we'll take a -1 equivalent Ban, going to -3, and then give a moderate positive Ban of +2, and a Willpower cost of 1 finally ends up in 0.


                              The hunter calls upon spirits of health and protection to grant him the healing touch so many shamans and holy men claim to have yet most lack. Raphael, Isis, Apollo, Arimed and Loco all may offer their help to the shaman, banishing sickness with a weave of their hand and mending wounded flesh as if it was clay. However, such gifts are not given for free, and the gods and angels who are not paid respectfully end up turning upon the rude shaman and turn their blessing into curse.

                              Effects

                              • Action: the shaman must spend half a hour in undisturbed prayer or chanting to the spirits, all by herself in a closed room lit only by sunlight; afterward, he gains an healing touch for the next hour. The healing itself requires expanding a Willpower point.

                              Lay of Hands: [Wits + Medicine]; by directing the healing energy of the spirit world, you can mend wounds and save lives.

                              Roll Results

                              Success:
                              you manage to channel the spiritual energy, healing 4 points of lethal damage.

                              Exceptional:
                              the ecstasy of divine power rushing through you is exhilarating, giving you back the spent Willpower point.

                              Failure:
                              the gods has judges you unworthy of their power. Nothing happens.

                              Dramatic:
                              you have disappointed the spirits, and they have decided to leave you behind. The Endowment is terminated immediately. Better pray again to prove yourself worthy.

                              Banish the Plague Demon: [Wits + Medicine] with -2 modifier for moderate and -3 for grave; by touching someone suffering for the Sick Tilt who does not suffer from any damage, the hunter can call upon the spirit to banish the disease from his body.

                              Roll Results

                              Success:
                              you remove the Sick Tilt from the target

                              Exceptional:
                              the ecstasy of divine power rushing through you is exhilarating, giving you back the spent Willpower point.

                              Failure:
                              the darkness of the plague proves itself equal to your patrons. Nothing happens.

                              Dramatic:
                              You have fought the demons in the target's body and lost. They now suffer from one point of Bashing damage as their sickness is triggered.

                              Ban: you can't be infected.
                              Ban: you can't intentionally harm someone as long as they don't try to harm you first.
                              End: you feel the spirit leaving you body and see its face as it bids goodbye. It may leave you a certain message, either helpful, threatening or even just a regular "pleasure to work with you", depends on your relationship with the spirit.

                              Prerequisites
                              • Prerequisite: Les Mysteres Status (ooo)

                              Endowment Source: initiation by the Les Mysteres.
                              Beautiful! But you forgot spirits always demand a chiminaje from the ritualist besides the flesh ride.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Raistlin View Post

                                Beautiful! But you forgot spirits always demand a chiminaje from the ritualist besides the flesh ride.
                                I've thought about adding that all Endowments require the Toll to be at least partly Actions, but I wasn't sure how complicated a Concept should be. But, yeah, it should be there.


                                Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

                                "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

                                I now blog in here

                                Comment

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