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[Open Dev] The Code

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  • [Open Dev] The Code

    Huh. Guess I'll do one of these things.

    Anyways, new open dev blog. This time covering the hunter Code.

  • #2
    Exposing someone else to the Supernatural is a 10-7 breaking point? That's going to be rough on Network Zero players.

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    • #3
      One problem:

      Why is mind control a penalty?

      Besides being very likely to piss a player off for no good reason, it doesn't make sense in the context of the Code ("That literally was not me. I am not like that-that is what makes me different").

      Otherwise, this looks awesome! I love the "success" Conditions, showing that psychologically, a hunter really is a bit different from everyone else, dealing with psychological strain by drowning it in work. It's easy to see the slasher that lurks at the heart of a hunter, and it is freaking beautiful.

      EDIT: Also, I think the Secret Frequency's Code is different from the basic one-that's probably replaced with "Not exposing the supernatural elements behind another person's breaking point to that person."
      Last edited by Leliel; 08-09-2017, 04:33 PM.


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      • #4
        Yeah I wouldn't be surprised in the splat write ups for each Compact and Conspiracy, they have their own Code additions/revisions that are exclusive to those factions.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Leliel View Post
          One problem:

          Why is mind control a penalty?

          Besides being very likely to piss a player off for no good reason, it doesn't make sense in the context of the Code ("That literally was not me. I am not like that-that is what makes me different").
          Perhaps because the removal of your free will in the matter is extra traumatic? Hunters still function off of Integrity, for the most part, and Integrity is all about things your character finds traumatic.

          That being said, how does everyone else feel about there being "levels" of Integrity Breaking Points? It looks quite similar to Wisdom in that regard, and it seems to touch on Humanity with the way that lower Integrity means being less impacted by Breaking Points. It feels like a way to add mechanics to Breaking Points no longer impacting you, but I'm not sure I like the implications of people with lower Integrity being increasingly violent and more resistant to trauma when the CofD core presents low-Integrity characters as more likely to suffer from and fail Breaking Points, not less. I don't know, maybe this is just a matter of presentation or the warped perspective of Hunters, but it feels very 1E in that regard and has unfortunate implications regarding people who have experienced trauma.

          It also feels a little bit... off... that Hunters get Touchstones when regular mortals and even Mages (who are, for the most part, human) do not. That's easily fixed with house rules, though, so it's kind of a non-issue.

          I do like that there's the twist of being able to build Integrity (and be better at handling Breaking Points) if you open up to someone or make an act of self-sacrifice. That is something that I really enjoy and would like to see incorporated some more, because that builds off of Touchstones in a delicious way that reminds me of Atrocity from Danse Macabre without all the gross bits where opening up to the people who matter to you puts strain on the relationship and pushes them away.

          One thing that I find really strange though is that "Inflicting Serious Harm to a Person" is an Integrity 10-7 Breaking Point and a Code Breaking Point too? So, what, your average PC loses a dot of Integrity and then all of a sudden they're cool with brutalizing or murdering people but not with torturing them?


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Leliel View Post
            One problem:

            Why is mind control a penalty?

            Besides being very likely to piss a player off for no good reason, it doesn't make sense in the context of the Code ("That literally was not me. I am not like that-that is what makes me different").
            Because Integrity is not just about violating the Code, it's about one's confidence being shaken. And breaking the code under mind control can be a confidence-shaking experience. Someone or something out there can make you break the code, no matter how you feel about it.

            Originally posted by Darkblade View Post
            Exposing someone else to the Supernatural is a 10-7 breaking point? That's going to be rough on Network Zero players.
            People rarely stay above 7 in these games. You start with 7. If you want more, Network Zero, a group that is devoted to turning the world as everyone knows it entirely upside down, is probably not the way to go.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Arcanist View Post

              Perhaps because the removal of your free will in the matter is extra traumatic? Hunters still function off of Integrity, for the most part, and Integrity is all about things your character finds traumatic.

              That being said, how does everyone else feel about there being "levels" of Integrity Breaking Points? It looks quite similar to Wisdom in that regard, and it seems to touch on Humanity with the way that lower Integrity means being less impacted by Breaking Points. It feels like a way to add mechanics to Breaking Points no longer impacting you, but I'm not sure I like the implications of people with lower Integrity being increasingly violent and more resistant to trauma when the CofD core presents low-Integrity characters as more likely to suffer from and fail Breaking Points, not less. I don't know, maybe this is just a matter of presentation or the warped perspective of Hunters, but it feels very 1E in that regard and has unfortunate implications regarding people who have experienced trauma.
              Hunters do questionable hard things. Asks a soldier if killing can get easier or harder the more trauma you experience. The assumption is that they become more callous to dealing with the loss of their friends, expecting it to happen again. Also much of the trauma is self inflicted by the things they choose to do.


              Offense is rarely given, but often taken.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                One problem:

                Why is mind control a penalty?

                Besides being very likely to piss a player off for no good reason, it doesn't make sense in the context of the Code ("That literally was not me. I am not like that-that is what makes me different").
                It's specifically at the discretion of the ST, and not everyone minds that kind of thing. Also...

                Whenever a hunter character violates the Code or experiences something that drastically shakes his confidence,
                Being mind contolled seems exactly like it'd be more likely to make a hunter double-down on the paranoid Vigil life-style that lower integrity seems to represent.


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                • #9
                  Is it my reading, or does hunters Integrity is shaken only on first killing particular monster? 'Oh, I killed one vampire, now I can kill thousands!'

                  Maybe next kills should be move to higher 'tier' of Integrity sins, to borrow Mage 2E terminology?


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                  • #10
                    There's something I find hard to reconcile in my head. "Integrity" states that characters on its lower end become more ruthless and obsessive. However, "Breaking Points" shows that losing Integrity makes characters insecure and filled with doubt. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems these rules incorporate clashing ideas.

                    They also show that going through a Breaking Point results in loss of confidence on one end, or radicalization on another. None of these offer clarity or regained sense of perspective. That could very well be intended, though.


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                    • #11
                      I'm guessing the obsessiveness is a reaction to insecurity. One cannot be sure of the world, so one clings to one thing. Plus a result of all those Conditions you get from the Breaking Points.

                      Like John's lost 4 Integrity. 3 of those Breaking Points were while he was being mind controlled. He can come out of that with a sureness that all mind controllers absolutely must be killed. And, because he's evidence of it, anyone who shows susceptibility to mind control cannot be trusted at all and are better off dead than a potential threat to him or living a tormented life dreading the things they've done under the control of monsters. He's of course able to not count himself among that group.
                      Last edited by nofather; 08-09-2017, 05:55 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
                        It also feels a little bit... off... that Hunters get Touchstones when regular mortals and even Mages (who are, for the most part, human) do not. That's easily fixed with house rules, though, so it's kind of a non-issue.
                        Doesn't seem off to me. Hunters rely on networking and cooperation in order to succeed and stay sane. So it fits their themes.

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                        • #13
                          I'm interested to see how "Gaining or bestowing power from an obviously monstrous source" is going to interact with Endowments.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Morty View Post
                            Doesn't seem off to me. Hunters rely on networking and cooperation in order to succeed and stay sane. So it fits their themes.
                            Looking at it that way, I suppose it does fit. Ah well, something to poke at with a stick if I ever get around to it. I just really like how Touchstones function to keep relationships in the forefront of the game so the characters don't completely drift away and I'm not entirely sure why they aren't in Mage, but that's neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the Code as presented here.

                            Originally posted by K9ine View Post
                            Hunters do questionable hard things. Asks a soldier if killing can get easier or harder the more trauma you experience. The assumption is that they become more callous to dealing with the loss of their friends, expecting it to happen again. Also much of the trauma is self inflicted by the things they choose to do.
                            Oh no, I totally get the idea behind the concept, I just find that it rubs me the wrong way a little given how this is a bit of a significant departure from how Integrity is presented elsewhere, especially since almost everything I can recall from just about every sidebar on the subject emphasizes that killing or severely injuring people (or monsters) is preferably always considered a Breaking Point. The only exceptions to that design paradigm I can think of are for Humanity, where you can take a Bane to ignore that particular Breaking Point, and Mage, where you can inure yourself specifically to acts of violence performed with magic. And if you're a Guardian of the Veil with a high Masque Merit, even acts of hubris without magic.

                            I don't mean to sound overly negative, I'm just having a hard time understanding how this particular interpretation of Integrity works compared to the standard assumptions of Integrity without being able to see the surrounding text or the associated Breaking Point Conditions. However, the things that are there that I like I really, enthusiastically, appreciate, such as opening up to another character giving you a bonus to Breaking Point rolls and opening up being a necessary prerequisite to regaining Integrity.
                            Last edited by Arcanist; 08-09-2017, 10:50 PM.


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                            • #15
                              It seems a little aggressively one size fits all to me, to be honest. A strong point of baseline Integrity is how much it customizes to the individual character, and a strong point of the old version of the Code was how personal it became. This seems much narrower. Hoping there's more to it. "One statement" doesn't seem like much personal perspective compared to a big required list.

                              I like the sound of the Vigilant/ Merciless/Vendetta et al. There's cool bits here. But I came out of that blog with an uncertain feeling.
                              Last edited by Nicias; 08-10-2017, 02:20 AM.

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