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[Open Dev] The Code

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  • #31
    Originally posted by mlvalentine View Post

    We have no plans to approach The Code from a one-size-fits-all angle. Per the text, each player will have the ability to tap into their personal take of the Code, and that may conflict with what their cell, compact, or conspiracy wants to do. How a player defines The Code is what shapes how the rules affect their hunter.
    Looking forward to seeing how that works!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      I think this is actually exactly why I'm not a fan of completely replacing the system for Integrity. Part of the appeal of Vigil to me is that anyone could become a Hunter. It's just a matter of experiencing the supernatural and deciding to do something about it instead of falling into the CofD human tendency to deny it. I like them having cool exceptions to the normal human rules, but I like them to layer on top of the normal human rules instead of replacing them to further blur the lines between human, Hunter, and Slasher.
      I don't know what to think of it yet. In a way it feels more like an optional rule for the regular core book but that's probably just me not seeing the point of HtV being separate from the blue books.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan View Post
        Looks pretty interesting and fun for the most part, except the Exceptional Success on Breaking Point Roll. As far as I know, no other meter punishes players for SUCCEEDING, and seeing how Persistent Obsession hasn't been fan favourite in any of my campaigns, I count that result as punishment. I'm not fan of purchasing points of Morality Meter either, and far prefer the approach of Werewolf and Changeling.

        As it is, I don't actually have a problem with that. Addicted may need to kick the bucket, but Obsession makes sense as a Success Condition-the hunter, shaken, rededicates herself to her job to channel the stress positively. After the Obsession is dealt with (ie, the Hunt ends), the hunter realizes she was acting irrationally and takes some time off to de-stress.

        As it is, Hunter Obsession should probably give some nice bonuses to show how determination is really an effective coping mechanism.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Leliel View Post


          As it is, I don't actually have a problem with that. Addicted may need to kick the bucket, but Obsession makes sense as a Success Condition-the hunter, shaken, rededicates herself to her job to channel the stress positively. After the Obsession is dealt with (ie, the Hunt ends), the hunter realizes she was acting irrationally and takes some time off to de-stress.

          As it is, Hunter Obsession should probably give some nice bonuses to show how determination is really an effective coping mechanism.
          That sounds better, but I was going off from the information we have, and that is the normal Obsession Condition, which doesn't give much bonuses. It's especially harmful when game isn't laser focused on one monster, and thus most rolls suffer. Also, the Condition being Persistent on Exceptional Success is still counter-intuitive to me; the stronger mind the hunter has, the more likely he becomes mentally scarred, removed from humanity and deeply obsessed?

          Until we see what the Conditions do, I can't say I would use the system as written.

          Edit. I like that realization and de-stress angle you mentioned. I'll propably use houserule that successfully resolving Persisten Conditions gained from breaking points allows to raise Integrity once per story. ^^
          Last edited by Crazy_Ivan; 08-11-2017, 04:54 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan View Post
            Edit. I like that realization and de-stress angle you mentioned. I'll propably use houserule that successfully resolving Persisten Conditions gained from breaking points allows to raise Integrity once per story. ^^
            I'm pretty sure this is why all of the Persistent Conditions you can get from a Dramatically Failed Integrity Breaking Point roll can be resolved by gaining a point of Integrity.


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            • #36
              I like that, based on the description, the Code should protect against the amnesia effects of the Sleeping Curse. Not the integrity hit, mind, just the amnesia. That's good.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Professor Phobos View Post
                I like that, based on the description, the Code should protect against the amnesia effects of the Sleeping Curse. Not the integrity hit, mind, just the amnesia. That's good.
                Where do you draw that conclusion from?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Professor Phobos View Post
                  I like that, based on the description, the Code should protect against the amnesia effects of the Sleeping Curse. Not the integrity hit, mind, just the amnesia. That's good.
                  It doesn't.


                  Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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                  • #39
                    There's stuff that I like here but there are also a couple of major sticking points that are sort of bothering me. The biggest one is that it puts a lot of focus on hunters as aggressive and violent people who go out and murder monsters, which makes the game feel less like "people who see what everyone else looks away from and take a stand" and more "let's go murder some scary magic things." I'm really not sure how well it would play in groups that focus more on the less violent sides of The Vigil, like Network Zero's fight against the veil/masquerade or the Barret Commission's work keeping vampires out of politics. Violence might happen along the way, but that's not really what they're about. I've had problems in the past where the majority of my players were on board to do a social/investigative plot but one of them got the impression that hunter was all about the big guns and monster killin' and tried to go around shooting plot hooks, and while that's something that really just needed to be talked out ahead of time at the table I could see passages like this leading to similar problems for people who didn't learn that lesson the hard way.

                    The way people come to The Code also feels a bit odd. The way it's written, being something a lot of people come to themselves but also universal in its tenants, it almost reads like there's a magical universal hive mind whose basic moral underpinnings all hunters intuitively understand. If it's something that's usually shared socially as some kind of wider hunter culture and tier one gets lumped into the same mechanics for simplicity I'm fine with that, but it doesn't come off that way here.

                    Those aside I really like what I'm seeing. I especially like that a lot of breaking points are only called for the first time something happens, acknowledging that it's a traumatic event but not making day to day hunter business a race to see how quickly you can drop to integrity 3, and I really love that hunters can only regain integrity through an open, honest connection with someone. It strikes a good balance between the active and dedicated humanist perspective that I liked playing to in 1e while keeping the "he who fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster" theme in plain view.

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                    • #40
                      This is a bit of a mixed bag for me.

                      On the one hand, I love the idea of picking up Persistent conditions as your Integrity drops - that has potential. I also like that they use a different set of Conditions for DF/F/S/ES. I also like the expanded list of penalties - feels pretty appropriate (though "actively and willingly helping a monster" feels a bit off - it's an action, not a modifier). Oh, and the Touchstones/using Touchstones as a prerequisite to gaining Integrity is pretty great.

                      On the other hand... I hate the scale. The one thing that made mortal Integrity interesting to me is that Breaking Points are negotiable. Nothing is, strictly speaking, innate - there's a step where you can suggest that, hey, this wouldn't count as a Breaking Point.

                      Like, I dunno... I kinda want to see this as a "template" you slap over mortal Integrity. Something like this, maybe?

                      The Code acts like a second Virtue for the purposes of Breaking Points - it always is appropriate when going after monsters, and different Hunter groups have their own tweaks to when you can use it. Additionally, you can add "rules" to your personal Code - they supply additional bonuses when The Code applies, and widen what qualifies as "violating" The Code. Dot your i's and cross your t's, and you'll be safe and secure.

                      Of course, you can lean on The Code in a more hardcore way - you can use it to just plain say "no" to rolling whenever it would apply. Whenever you do this, you have to take an appropriate condition, which can only be resolved by opening up to a Touchstone. Opening up to a Touchstone is also required to buy up Integrity, so you should do it consistently.

                      Oh and by the way, violating The Code is, itself, a Breaking Point. Just thought you should know.


                      I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

                      So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post

                        It doesn't.
                        So now we have a confirmed, "the Code doesn't keep you from suffering the Sleeper's Curse." I'm assuming that means it also doesn't make you immune to Lunacy or Disquiet either. Does the Code provide a chance roll to resist Lunacy or Disquiet? I'm curious (was curious back in 1e too) how Hunters without innate abilities (Endowments like Castigations, Supernatural merits) can remember the supernatural forces or creatures they've hunted or are hunting. Innate supernatural abilities, be they merits or endowments does make a person a Sleepwalker by definition if memory serves right?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ArcadianAwakened View Post
                          Those aside I really like what I'm seeing. I especially like that a lot of breaking points are only called for the first time something happens, acknowledging that it's a traumatic event but not making day to day hunter business a race to see how quickly you can drop to integrity 3, and I really love that hunters can only regain integrity through an open, honest connection with someone. It strikes a good balance between the active and dedicated humanist perspective that I liked playing to in 1e while keeping the "he who fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster" theme in plain view.
                          For me better balance would be next killing monster to move on 'Integrity Tier' higher, not miss it totally in Code - most of the time it would not make difference - first time killing monster in Integrity 4-6, so next monster killings would be on Integrity 7-10 - i.e. most character once killing particular monster would not be moved by killing another. BUT if character would strife to high Integrity ( like 9-10 ) it would become more and more problem for her - and highlight that Vigil, in the end, is self-destructive obsession for mortal, nothing truly 'healthy' for character.
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-12-2017, 04:59 PM.


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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                            For me better balance would be next killing monster to move on 'Integrity Tier' higher, not miss it totally in Code - most of the time it would not make difference - first time killing monster in Integrity 4-6, so next monster killings would be on Integrity 7-10 - i.e. most character once killing particular monster would not be moved by killing another. BUT if character would strife to high Integrity ( like 9-10 ) it would become more and more problem for her - and highlight that Vigil, in the end, is self-destructive obsession for mortal, nothing truly 'healthy' for character.
                            If you bold every second sentence in your post, it makes it impossible to read.


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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Robert D View Post
                              So now we have a confirmed, "the Code doesn't keep you from suffering the Sleeper's Curse." I'm assuming that means it also doesn't make you immune to Lunacy or Disquiet either. Does the Code provide a chance roll to resist Lunacy or Disquiet? I'm curious (was curious back in 1e too) how Hunters without innate abilities (Endowments like Castigations, Supernatural merits) can remember the supernatural forces or creatures they've hunted or are hunting. Innate supernatural abilities, be they merits or endowments does make a person a Sleepwalker by definition if memory serves right?
                              Oh man, I would really rather not have this argument again. I think it's time we all just accept that, by default setting assumptions, Hunters without innate supernatural abilities or the Sleepwalker Merit have no way of circumventing these sorts of memory altering effects, and if you want there to be a way, you can house rule it. I'm a supporter of hunters having ways to cope with such effects, but it's just not. worth. fighting over any more.


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                              • #45
                                Lunacy shouldn't be too much of an issue. It doesn't always force a memory loss, and people working together, like a cell, or who have been injured by a werewolf, get bonuses to it. It's still a fearful experience but, again, doesn't always make people forget what happened.

                                Mage has a 1-dot Merit to make you a Sleepwalker and turn you immune to the Curse and cause no Dissonance.

                                As Charlaquin has implied, this was confirmed long ago. Here's a link to one of the primary threads about it.
                                Last edited by nofather; 08-12-2017, 04:11 PM.

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