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[Open Dev] The Code

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  • #46
    Originally posted by ArcadianAwakened View Post
    There's stuff that I like here but there are also a couple of major sticking points that are sort of bothering me. The biggest one is that it puts a lot of focus on hunters as aggressive and violent people who go out and murder monsters, which makes the game feel less like "people who see what everyone else looks away from and take a stand" and more "let's go murder some scary magic things." I'm really not sure how well it would play in groups that focus more on the less violent sides of The Vigil, like Network Zero's fight against the veil/masquerade or the Barret Commission's work keeping vampires out of politics. Violence might happen along the way, but that's not really what they're about. I've had problems in the past where the majority of my players were on board to do a social/investigative plot but one of them got the impression that hunter was all about the big guns and monster killin' and tried to go around shooting plot hooks, and while that's something that really just needed to be talked out ahead of time at the table I could see passages like this leading to similar problems for people who didn't learn that lesson the hard way.

    The way people come to The Code also feels a bit odd. The way it's written, being something a lot of people come to themselves but also universal in its tenants, it almost reads like there's a magical universal hive mind whose basic moral underpinnings all hunters intuitively understand. If it's something that's usually shared socially as some kind of wider hunter culture and tier one gets lumped into the same mechanics for simplicity I'm fine with that, but it doesn't come off that way here.

    Those aside I really like what I'm seeing. I especially like that a lot of breaking points are only called for the first time something happens, acknowledging that it's a traumatic event but not making day to day hunter business a race to see how quickly you can drop to integrity 3, and I really love that hunters can only regain integrity through an open, honest connection with someone. It strikes a good balance between the active and dedicated humanist perspective that I liked playing to in 1e while keeping the "he who fights monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster" theme in plain view.
    Check out Hurt Locker. Not all violence is physical or a life or death matter. Violence is about dominance. Power.

    I agree with the notions about the innate Code breaches being arbitrary running counter to the spirit of Integrity.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post

      It doesn't.

      That's bad.

      My read was that the Code is about hardening the mind against the supernatural, and Mage 2E explicitly states the amnesia is a consequence of the human mind protecting itself - the Code is a clear mechanism for providing an alternative hardening, then.

      But I actually did not like how Mage 2E handled sleepwalkers (especially compared to how Werewolf 2E handled Lunacy) and it's clear the design attitude disagrees with me, so, whatever, I guess.
      Last edited by Professor Phobos; 08-12-2017, 06:14 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Professor Phobos View Post


        That's bad.

        My read was that the Code is about hardening the mind against the supernatural, and Mage 2E explicitly states the amnesia is a consequence of the human mind protecting itself - the Code is a clear mechanism for providing an alternative hardening, then.

        But I actually did not like how Mage 2E handled sleepwalkers (especially compared to how Werewolf 2E handled Lunacy) and it's clear the design attitude disagrees with me, so, whatever, I guess.
        I doubt Dave's gonna send ninjas to your home if you decide the Code equals a 1 dot merit which you'd give to your players for free and thus wouldn't need to write down in their sheet to begin with. Golden rule and all.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Malus View Post

          I doubt Dave's gonna send ninjas to your home if you decide the Code equals a 1 dot merit which you'd give to your players for free and thus wouldn't need to write down in their sheet to begin with. Golden rule and all.

          I'd rather not have to be house-ruling in the first place? It's a 1 dot merit that won't appear in Hunter itself, a 1 dot merit tax that isn't necessary to support either the themes of Hunter or Mage, and I think the attitude behind how Sleepwalkers are handled is actively toxic to Mage itself as a gameline (and obviously bad for crossover purposes with Hunter) and not reflective of how the nWoD second editions have improved in design overall. When Lunacy went from binary to dynamic, the Sleeping Curse went from binary to more binary. It's weird and annoys me.

          So, yeah, I can just golden rule it, but you asked. I'll drop the subject though if it's been discussed ad nauseum already.
          Last edited by Professor Phobos; 08-12-2017, 07:04 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Malus View Post

            Check out Hurt Locker. Not all violence is physical or a life or death matter. Violence is about dominance. Power.

            I agree with the notions about the innate Code breaches being arbitrary running counter to the spirit of Integrity.
            The issue isn't that the idea of violence is there, it's that within the context of hunter (or at least this section) it's about blood or savagery or the person behind the flamethrower. There's a couple of mentions toward how a hunter might be more manipulative in the same way they could be violent, but it's easy to gloss over.

            Generally I'd like to see as much as possible that the game is more about hunters as the people who see the big nasty magic stuff and deal with it when others can't or won't, rather than the guys that grab guns and flamethrowers to murder scary things. The mechanics of this mostly do an alright job of that, it just doesn't feel that way when you read the flavor and background around it.

            I'll also say that at least for my part I don't mind the fixed breaking points used here. It's more flexible and customizable than most integrity equivalents, and I prefer it to the system in 1e where you kept your sanity by acting more psychologically damaged.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Professor Phobos View Post


              I'd rather not have to be house-ruling in the first place? It's a 1 dot merit that won't appear in Hunter itself, a 1 dot merit tax that isn't necessary to support either the themes of Hunter or Mage, and I think the attitude behind how Sleepwalkers are handled is actively toxic to Mage itself as a gameline (and obviously bad for crossover purposes with Hunter) and not reflective of how the nWoD second editions have improved in design overall. When Lunacy went from binary to dynamic, the Sleeping Curse went from binary to more binary. It's weird and annoys me.

              So, yeah, I can just golden rule it, but you asked. I'll drop the subject though if it's been discussed ad nauseum already.
              You didn't read me. No need to tax any PC. Just regard all Hunters with any sufficient exposure to the supernal as sleepwalkers without wasting sheet space for a 1 dot merit if that's how you want to run the game.

              There aren't perfect games. Specially if you rely on third parties to deliver things to your exact expectations while you aren't the guy in charge for it. *shrug*

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              • #52
                Originally posted by ArcadianAwakened View Post

                The issue isn't that the idea of violence is there, it's that within the context of hunter (or at least this section) it's about blood or savagery or the person behind the flamethrower. There's a couple of mentions toward how a hunter might be more manipulative in the same way they could be violent, but it's easy to gloss over.

                Generally I'd like to see as much as possible that the game is more about hunters as the people who see the big nasty magic stuff and deal with it when others can't or won't, rather than the guys that grab guns and flamethrowers to murder scary things. The mechanics of this mostly do an alright job of that, it just doesn't feel that way when you read the flavor and background around it.

                I'll also say that at least for my part I don't mind the fixed breaking points used here. It's more flexible and customizable than most integrity equivalents, and I prefer it to the system in 1e where you kept your sanity by acting more psychologically damaged.
                Picking up a flame-thrower and trying to roast the thing that terrifies you whilst trying to maintain the lid on growing paranoid thoughts barely contained by a thin connection with someone you know wouldn't have to suffer such fate sounds as human as it gets; IMO.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Malus View Post

                  Picking up a flame-thrower and trying to roast the thing that terrifies you whilst trying to maintain the lid on growing paranoid thoughts barely contained by a thin connection with someone you know wouldn't have to suffer such fate sounds as human as it gets; IMO.
                  And that's all fine, I'd just like to see the game take a broader focus on how and why people take a stand against the things that go bump in the night. Making the game just about the visceral parts or the psychological damage is fine if that's what you or your group want, but there are a lot of other creepy or compelling stories you can tell with hunters of other stripes. For me, at least, the game is less interesting if it leans toward lumping most hunters into the "integrity 6 or lower killing machine" box.

                  I get the sense that what I'm looking for is in the drafts they're doing already on some level, I just wanted to give my two cents since this draft brought it to mind.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ArcadianAwakened View Post

                    And that's all fine, I'd just like to see the game take a broader focus on how and why people take a stand against the things that go bump in the night. Making the game just about the visceral parts or the psychological damage is fine if that's what you or your group want, but there are a lot of other creepy or compelling stories you can tell with hunters of other stripes. For me, at least, the game is less interesting if it leans toward lumping most hunters into the "integrity 6 or lower killing machine" box.

                    I get the sense that what I'm looking for is in the drafts they're doing already on some level, I just wanted to give my two cents since this draft brought it to mind.
                    You'd have better luck if you define your "broader strokes".

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ArcadianAwakened View Post
                      And that's all fine, I'd just like to see the game take a broader focus on how and why people take a stand against the things that go bump in the night. Making the game just about the visceral parts or the psychological damage is fine if that's what you or your group want, but there are a lot of other creepy or compelling stories you can tell with hunters of other stripes. For me, at least, the game is less interesting if it leans toward lumping most hunters into the "integrity 6 or lower killing machine" box.
                      They really don't seem to be going towards depicting all hunters as killing machines, especially with the emphasis on actual killing machines as an antagonist.

                      That said, a hunter isn't just someone who has a ghost in their house and deals with it then moves on with their life. Hunters have been fundamentally changed, not just by their experience, but by the decision to change their life, devoting themselves to doing something about it, not just when it effects them. Even one who abstains from killing is going to be encountering mind-breaking things that will hit their Integrity. Most Breaking Points aren't the result of something the character does as much as something the character has seen, or something that's been done to them.
                      Last edited by nofather; 08-13-2017, 06:36 PM.

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