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  • Potential For Greatness

    So since C&C have came out, I've toyed with the idea of the possibility of elevating different compacts to conspiracies, and even made a couple of threads about the potentiallity of how would the different compacts may look like if and when they'll attain that state- but while it was a fun thought experiment, the truth is that not every compact actually has the tools to become a conspiracy. In order to have that potential, the compact needs to have a solid structure, resources, a unified vision, the ability to create a legacy or some occult basis for an Endowment. Sure, not every compact have all of those- most of them lacks them, which is why they'll never reach Tier 3. Still, even by having one factor, the group may still have the potential to become something greater. Whether that potential will be fufilled is another question- but still, this thread is about discussing that potential.

    Just to make things easy, I am going to rate each existing compact with a score between 1 to 5 about their "potential", with 1 being "very unlikely" and "5" being almost certain. For reference, 10 will be given to Network Zero and the Promethean Brotherhood, which were said to have that potential.

    Ashwood Abbey: now, the thing is that I may be biased (as I really like the Hellfire Club), but I do really think that the Ashwood Abbey have almost everything it needs in order to become a conspiracy. Global reach? Check. Resources and connections? Check. Well defined structure through the licence method? Check. They only thing left is perhaps numbers and an occult source for an Endowment. Like C&C has asked, when looking at the Abbey, we need to ask ourselves not what would they need to become a conspiracy- but what stops them? The question is, of course, the high licence fees (it is still a pyramid scheme, after all) and, basically, the will to be more than a group of vitae junky, pelt skinning, demon dealing bastards they are. Not something that can't happen, but without that motivation to make their Vigil into more than something to do when you are bored the Abbey will be capped at their Tier. 4/5.

    Long Night: so the truth to be told, it took me a while to get why there are two Christian groups in Hunter (in my defense, I am not christian and the history classes all they taught us was "protestants are Christians that don't listen to the Pope", more or less). However, that was the past, and now I have a much better grasp of those differences, and I can see how the Long Night stand on their own. Still, examining the compact, the truth is that the Long Night don't have many points in their favor- they are a very fructured organization, just as Protestants are far from being a unified monolith. Between their Catholic and Anglican rivals, I am not sure they can hold on their own (sure, technically Anglicanism belongs is considered to be "Protestant", but it is a matter of debate and not without a good reason- not to mention that the Knights of St George apperently play on the joke that in order to be a good Anglican you don't need to believe in God). While their Endowment, the Prayer, can been seen as a certain source of mystical power which may be somehow utilized for greater acts, I am not sure that the compact can achieve the level of cohesivity required to reach a conspiracy status. 2/5.

    Loyalists of Thule: now, here we are talking about a group which I really think can and should have grown to become a conspiracy. They have far more intelligence about the darkness than most compacts, their reach is global, they deal a lot with occult powers, have the rmohoals as a potential basis for an Endowment, and are indeed a secretive occult organization, not to mention a well defined power structure. Plus, if my theory that the leaders of the conspiracy are actually ghosts is true, it would make a really cool potential for their identity as a conspiracy. Anyway, it seems that the main thing which holds them back is that they are afraid of grasping power, due to their own history- but if they'll survive for a decade or less, they may very well reach that state. 5/5.

    Network Zero: as it has already been described, Network Zero have all the tools to become a conspiracy. While the begining of Deep Fake and the dilution of truth may serve as obstacles, but at least one faction may actually utilize such technologies as they too don't want the truth to be exposed too fast in fear of compromise (which is the most conspiracy material among the three factions). 5/5.

    Null Mysteriis: while they have a global reach and a lot of people in the right places, the compact lacks a cohesive organization, resources or connection. They are more of a loose association of scientists and scholars than anything else, and the factions are really at each other's throats. They make much more sense as a group from which other conspiracies or larger compacts recruit- like TFV, Cheiron or even a possible merge with the Loyalists. They may develop a new Endoement, but the chances are that some other group would steal it from them. So yeah, while it could be fun to see such a group as a conspiracy, it is currently very unlikely. 2/5.

    The Union: now, the thing is that I really do like the idea of a Dollars/CROWDS like organization of hunters. You download an app, suddenly you get a notification about a nearby challenge: just bring a oil and a match. You go there and find some in need to help, so you throw the oil on the thing and light it up. Score- 2000 points! Level up! I really think that something like this could express the whole "1st Tier mentality in a 3rd Tier scale", but the thing is that the Union, while it operate through such an app, lacks the ability to generate leadership- which means it is far more likely that instead of becoming a conspiracy on their own, someone else would use the Union's infrastructure for their own needs- like a potential merge with Network Zero, as a part of their own ascension. 2/5.

    SWORN: so the last newcomer to the Hunter universe... or are they? Like you may have seen in my Hunter 2e Review thread, I may have had a certain issues with digesting that compact, but the more I thought about it the more it became clear to me that SWORN may very well be the result of the Keepers of the Weave's ruin due to the Indian Relocation act which destroyed them (togeether wioth other native american organizations), which helps them to gain some more identity (the whole thing about "old stories about monsters and cryptids" does sit well within the group). I also rememeber some fan rambling that the Keepers may by themselves be a local front of a wider conspiracy, which was, again, destroyed during those times. At any case. SWORN do start to have a global reach, even if they lack the needed organization to rise in their tiers, not to mention the lack of resources and such (the problem at being a group made out of native minorities). Still, I do like the idea of SWORN perhaps being able to reconstruct their past structure, if not some thought to be lost Endowment of a fallen native american conspiracy. 2/5.

    Division VI: so fun fact- Division VI actually think they are already a conspiracy! Like, at least, they believe they are a part of a wider network meant to hunt down reality deviants. While it is fun and all, the Seer patrons of the compact will probably won't like them to grow too independent- so any attempt to actually rise in the ranks will be cut short immediatly. While the idea that the Ministry of the Gate would somehow try to convert them to their own goals is fun, it is still far from turning them into a conspiracy. If they'll find out about who is actually behind the group, they would probably disband. If the Seers would decide that their experiment works, they would probably make arrangements with the patrons of VALKYRIE in order to unify those two groups, as presented in the manuscript preview. So yeah, the chance for that compact to rise in tiers is not very high. 1/5.

    Keepers of the Source: again, I need to work against my own biase, as I just LOVE that group. But still, making them into a conspiracy just because I love them, while is a good enough reason for my own game, means nothing about the actual potential. From the other hand, I am not sure that the Keepers do not have that potential in the first place- they do occupy a place within the occult community of San Fransico, their dowsing sense and understanding of the ley lines may be further developed into an actual Endowment, and they have been mentioned in Book of the Dead as at least being able to coordiante themselves into creating a full scale ritual to polute magic with the Underworld's corrosive touch. Still, their internal infighting stops them from creating a solid structure, and as such increase their reach, but they do have some solid points inside of them already. 3/5.

    Promethean Brotherhood: yeah, as the first compact to actually rise the possibility of becoming a conspiracy, not to mention them having all the needed tools to do so, it is a safe bet that they could achieve that status- if they didn't already. 5/5.

    Bear Lodge: the likey successors of the Les Voyageurs, the Bear Lodge is more or less what it is- a hunting clrb dedicated around werewolves. While it could be fun to envision Bear as blessing the group in their hunt, between their very limited Vigil and not very well connected members, it is hard for me to envision them into becoming a conspiracy without an help (again, like Bear blessing the compact). Maybe them being absorbed into the Abbey whould serve as a catalyst for the former becoming a conspiracy, becoming one of the factions in the new organization. 2/5.

    Illuminated Brotherhood: yeah... no, that's probably not a conspiracy material. Being confined to College members who take drugs to see beyond the Gauntlet, while giving them a certain possible Endowment material, lacks a lot of the requierments for becoming a 3rd tier. It is more likely they will be absrobed by the Ascending Ones, Cheiron or even the Hototogisu. 2/5.

    Talbot Group: I really do like the Talbot Group, but I think they lack the needed infrastructure, resources or Endowment material which is required for them to become a conspiracy. Maybe if they'll unite with other, like minded organizations such as the Yuri's Group it could be possible, but overall, they are just honest people who try to help monsters to be human. 1/5.

    Barret Commission: Now- this is a possibility. Sure, the preview states that they are to be absorbed into TFV, yet it may be a subject for changes, and they indeed seem to qualify for most of the needed requierments. They have connections, resources, structure and reach, and we can even perhaps spin out some new Endowment material for them. On the other hand, the fact that we have VALKYRIE does limits their growth potential- the compacts try to bloack vampires from taking over the government, VALKYRIE is funded by vampires, a clash arise. Maybe they'll be able to get rid of the vampires, incorperating themselves as the TFV's new funders and merging with them. Heck, it could be a good explanation for how exactly the groups have merged. Otherwise, in order to become a conspiracy they would have to go private or something. 3/5.

    Maiden's Blood Sisterhood: now, while I would really want a group which is to Cruac what the MM are to Theban Sorcery, I am not sure that the Sisterhood is best candidate. Again, being localized in college limits their growth potential, no matter the witch patrons. While they do allow you to play the whole Buffy the Vampire Slayer shtick, and we could argue that Buffy have created some form of a conspiracy, it is going to require some outside help- and I am not sure that the compact has the tools to reach that state. 2/5.

    Night Watch: so yeah, basically the same state as the Union, only with less global reach and presence, so they are very unlikely to become a conspiracy beyond a possible merge with the Union and/or Network Zero. 1/5.

    Hunt Club: basically the Vigil's worst nightmare. They have a global presence, connections, resources and potential to grow a "tamed slasherhood" kind of Endowment. Still, the fact that they are evil bastards who murder people and that slashers are not the most cooperative of organizations does stops their growth, and the fact they share their bad with the Abbey may mean that if the latter would try to become a conspiracy, it may very well ends up with purging the Club (you really should check you partners for STDs). While 2e does predicts a coming clash between the organization, a merge is also possible, which means they could become a conspiracy together- but if it would ends up with an open war, even if they were to win against the Abbey (which is less likely, IMO), they still lack the needed amount of trust in order to become a conspiracy. 3/5.

    Nine Stars: now, I simply adore those guys- but the thing is that they are indeed very, very localized. Being so intwined into the local police of Hong Kong, while it would help them to deal with the slasher tide caused by the Eater of Names, means they have a very small growth potential. The best they can get is a possible merge with either VASCU (as they too are former law enforcement turned PI) or the Council of Bones (witht he whole slasher-ghost-monster god kind of thing which goes on there). 1/5.

    Habibti Ma'at: so yeah, another small yet an adorable compact- but they may have more growth potential than the others. I mean, cults are some pretty vicious competition, and so they must try to grow beyond them or be crushed. While being crushed is a very likely possibility, the idea that prayer helps them to deprogram cultists and the fact that they are called after Ma'at, the goddess of justice of Egypt (and, more importantly, the Law of Suffering of irem) makes it very, very likely that they may have some hidden patron in the form of the Judges. Perhaps some merge with the other groups which work to help those harmed by the supernatural (like the Talbot and Yuri's Groups) would help them in their mission. 2/5.

    Utopia Now: so we don't know if it was a typo or not, but the manuscript did mentioned this compact as becoming a conspiracy- which is a concept that I love, and would actually make sense. Even if it was not the intention, given how they scavange the God Machine and develope their own projects would mean they indeed have the potential to reach that point, if they'll somehow organize themselves properly. Heck, maybe a merge between them and Null Mysteriis could serve as the catalyst. 4/5.

    The Reckoning: yeah, so they are barely even a compact, so no? At best they could merge into the Long Night or the Les Mysteres, for what its worth. 1/5.

    Protectors of Light: again, chances are that they are ruined beyond repair and that remains have been absrobed into SWORN, so they'll share their fate with them. Unlike the Keepers, I've never been much a fan of those guys, so... *shruggs*. 1/5.

    Scarlet Watch: now, technically that compact no longer exists- but is it me, or that they and the Heritage House share a thing or two in common? I mean, being bound by blood, fate, oath and dream makes it very likely that the Watch would eventually recreate itself in some form. Plus, it seems to be heavily hinted that the Watch are a former conspiracy, so they do have some supernatural power which governs them, and works in order to recreate the organization with the possibility of them finding their old magics and weapons against the darkness. So yeah, given time and possibility, fate itself is likely to allow their new incarnation to reach their former status. 4/5.

    Ama San: so the tradition of pearl diving has more or less fallen from grace, even though some other group may have utilized the techniques of the fallen compact for their own benefit. They do have their basis for an Endowment in the form of the isobe, after all- but still, somehow the tolls of the compact needs to be refined and incoprated into a large scale, global organization dedicated for hunting the monsters of the deep, and Japan may already be too crowded with 2-4 possible conspiracies within it. 2/5.

    Azusa Miko: so you asked why more than Japanese conspiracies? Here is the answer. While due to the unfortunate circumstances the Tokyo setting was never completed, the last material we got about it from the (semiofficial) Changeling's Tokyo 2e preview did gave use something for all of the other gamelines... such as Geist. In that small paragraph the Azusa Miko were mentioned as still existing, helping Sin Eaters in their pilgrimage. Since the have survived for so long, it is possible they have the needed tools to become a conspiracy, unless they have already reached that stage. Plus, we could devise an whole Endomwnet around their meduimship magic. On the other hand, 2e have already given us a medium conspiracy- the Council of Bones. It would make sense for the Azusa Miko to merge with other nascant medium sects all across the globe in order to recreate the current Council, even if they are more independent than othe Chapters. 3/5.

    Bijinn: as a very social network of "beautiful people" and artists, they were probably broken after the fall of Edo. If they survived, however, they could make some excellent material for the local Ashwood Abbey chapter, effectively being merged into the compact- or be a step in their rise into a conspiracy. 1/5.

    Gimu: this semiofficial compact of samurai was probably abolished during the Meiji Restoration. While some of their traditions and values may resurface (especially in the romanticization of the samurai), they are not likely to form a conspiracy. I mean, they have fallen for a reason, after all. 1/5.

    Soldiers of the Forbidden Sun: like, how in the Nine Hells are they even mentioned as a compact in their writeup? I mean, they are old as ****, even during their own Era! No compact can survive for over 1000 years! The only possible explanation that they were a conspiracy which fell from grace while its old enemies were asleep, and they now need to rebuild (somehow what happedn to the Scarlet Watch, only in a far more organized way). I guess that the actual reason that those guys are a compact was because 2e is still in process and they didn't want to present a 1e Conspiracy in the book or have something in the state that Changeling was due to the unfortunate circumstances, but still, they should definetly be a conspiracy within their Era. As for outside of it? Well... That's a bit more complicated. Between the Opium Wars and the Cultural Revolution I am not sure that the Soldiers would have survived- but it is still a possibility. Perhaps they were incorporated into the new regim after the end of Mao's rule. Maybe they have moved to the shadows, slowly rebuilding themselves from those who remained loyal to the old traditions. Maybe they are truly gone, and some other group have taken their mantle. We are talking about people who fight the Arisen, after all. Like their target, they probably don't die easily. 4/5.

    Followers of Mansa: yeah, so here we are talking about a very localized group, in both time and space. Between Mansa's death, the fall of the empire and colonialism, I am not sure the compact have survived. Still, they have a cool concept, and during their Era they may have accumilated the needed resources and connections needed to become a conspiracy. Maybe they have somehow survived, becoming a modern conspiracy within the region of West Africa. Probably they didn't, but it is a possibility. 3/5.

    Ahl al Jabal: now, while the Ascending Ones do somewhat cover the "Muslim hunter conspiracy" angle, they are actually much wider and stranger, being focused around alchemy and fiath in general instead of Islam. The Ahl al Jabal, on the other hand, may be a better expression of that idea- maybe. I must admit I am not sure, but the thing is that a) they are old b) they may very well have some access to supernatural powers and c) they have a well defined heirarchy. As such, in the case we are not talking about different groups which use the same name, the Ahl al Jabal should and would be a conspiracy by modern era... at least, that what I would have said ten years ago. After the Araba Spring and the civil wars in Iraq and Syria, it is very likely that the group was pretty much broken apart. Still, the shards may still be there, and they may indeed rise once more. 3/5.

    So, what do you think of this rating? Would you rate those compacts differently, either higher or lower on the scale? Which compacts do you think are the most likely to become conspiracies, beside of the most obvious ones?


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  • #2
    Not really related to the topic, but it's worth noting that the Union wouldn't incorporate the Night Watch for the same reason they're separate compacts to begin with-Night Watch compromises criminal members who are from the low-class, impoverished, and often ethnic minorities that the members that make up the Union would be more inclined against-while there's a spectrum to the political ideologies that might be found in the compact, there's a strong presentation that the majority leans towards Republican attitudes and ideiologies. Trump's America has some fans in the Union. Night Watch exists because they comprise the sort of people the Union wouldn't want in their neighborhood.

    I'm not going to go through all of them, but I'll loosely group by book and/or other kinds of categories and point out the ones I think have the Conspiracy Potential.

    Core Books: If we remove NetZo from the list becuase C&C covered it and add in SWORN, I'd still reasonably put the odds on the Loyalists of Thule and Ashwood Abbey, though Null Mysteriis is a strong third place. The Long Night could do it if they could rely on some kind of strong central figure, like an interfaith council or the Mormon Church.

    Witch Finders: Promethean Brotherhood by a landslide, though since Division Six is a Panopticon project, I wouldn't quite be willing to propose they couldn't escalate once proven useful.

    Spirit Slayers: I disagree on the Illuminated Brotherhood-kids in college go on to become professionals in the field, and I can see a branch of experimental scientists that don't quite fit in with with Null doing it on their own. Still, winner goes to Talbot since they've got the leg up on the resources to global right now.

    Night Stalkers: Barrett, hands down.

    Mortal Remains: Utopia Now is clearly on top of the game among the four, but it must be noted that Habibti'Ma has a lot of ingrained potential, and Yuri's group could get into the door. If the Reckoning ever got traction with significant enough portions of The Long Night, they could definitely expand, but not to a conspiracy level.

    The Hunt Club: I tbhink they're happy right where they're at.

    Fallen Blossoms: If Olivia had stuck around for Geist, she'd have done a thing with the Azusa Miko, which is about all I need to take that stance.

    Doubting Souls: Honestly I don't remember any of the compacts here. I wouldn't pick one of any just by virtue of not liking Doubting Souls.

    Dark Eras 2: Honestly the Soldiers of the Forbidden Sun are the most likely to go on in some form and at some point be picked up as a national (shadow) symbol, but it's worth noting that the Order of the Black Knight deviated enough from AKD that I could see them developing into their own thing. That and I just really liked the Order of the Black Knight, so I have my bias.

    Heritage House: any more would involve me believing they could succeed in their goals. I do not.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #3
      This is really good but I don’t have time to read it now so imma post this so it shows up as boldface in my recent posts to remind me to read it later.


      “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        Not really related to the topic, but it's worth noting that the Union wouldn't incorporate the Night Watch for the same reason they're separate compacts to begin with-Night Watch compromises criminal members who are from the low-class, impoverished, and often ethnic minorities that the members that make up the Union would be more inclined against-while there's a spectrum to the political ideologies that might be found in the compact, there's a strong presentation that the majority leans towards Republican attitudes and ideiologies. Trump's America has some fans in the Union. Night Watch exists because they comprise the sort of people the Union wouldn't want in their neighborhood.
        well, the idea was not exactly a merge between the Night Watch and the Union as much as a potential conspiracy which incorporate those compacts (as well as many other "community defender" groups) through some online infrastructure of some kind

        Witch Finders: Promethean Brotherhood by a landslide, though since Division Six is a Panopticon project, I wouldn't quite be willing to propose they couldn't escalate once proven useful.
        I would still argue that even if Division VI would show itself useful for the Seers, they would avoid allowing it to grow in power and scale, out of the fear they may actually understand that their are being manipulated and turn against them. The best case scenario is the proposed "Seers/Vampire" alliance in which Division VI becomes a part of TFV. While it is possible to maintain the lie of Division VI on a small scale, it would be very difficult to keep it going on 3rd tier, I believe

        Spirit Slayers: I disagree on the Illuminated Brotherhood-kids in college go on to become professionals in the field, and I can see a branch of experimental scientists that don't quite fit in with with Null doing it on their own. Still, winner goes to Talbot since they've got the leg up on the resources to global right now.
        I.. haven't considered the option of the Illuminated Brotherhood "graduating" and expanding beyond college. I've simply considered it as some sort of a faternity which would stay in college forever, and as such will remain in limited scale. On the other hand, the college culture in here is very different than the one in the US (we don't have a strong concept of clubs/ faternities/ sororities/ whatever in most universities), so yeah, it is a possibility? I still think they are more likely to be "bought" by a bigger conspiracy than become their own thing- the Jagged Crescent have probably already noticed their actions.

        The Hunt Club: I tbhink they're happy right where they're at.
        Yeah, the will to become a conspiracy is indeed a very important factor in doing so- both the Loyalists and the Abbey are limited mostly because of that lack of will- but in theory, if some high status member of the Hunt Club would decide to make a reform and somehow manage the others to follow their plan, they do not need to start from scratch, unlike some other groups who may really want to become something bigger but siomply lacks the means to do so.

        Doubting Souls: Honestly I don't remember any of the compacts here. I wouldn't pick one of any just by virtue of not liking Doubting Souls.
        Do I want to ask for the reason?

        Dark Eras 2: Honestly the Soldiers of the Forbidden Sun are the most likely to go on in some form and at some point be picked up as a national (shadow) symbol, but it's worth noting that the Order of the Black Knight deviated enough from AKD that I could see them developing into their own thing. That and I just really liked the Order of the Black Knight, so I have my bias.
        Ahmm.. I must say that I need to remind myself that the Order of the Black Knight actually exists- but the idea of them splitting from the AKD and starting their own thing is indeed possible. Perhaps it was actually one of the "foundations" for the future Knights of St George? I could see some common such development happening, even if other components (such as the heathen dragonslayers) would join later, bringing the dreams of sleeping angels with them.

        Heritage House: any more would involve me believing they could succeed in their goals. I do not.
        Like, my idea is basically hollow the House and use the empty shell it is in order to bring back the Scarlet Watch (which is from Doubting Souls) as their modern incarnation. Which is not that dofficult, as the Heritage House is very hollow in the first place (basically a number of hunter families who think that the Vigil should remain in the family, and idea already represented much better, IMO, through other groups- such as the Lucifuge, the AKD to some degree, and again, the Scarlet Watch).


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        • #5
          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
          Do I want to ask for the reason?
          It just didn't grab me, although that feels like I'm selling the experience short. It was almost an anti-grab, I had hard time reading my way through it. I can't point out any particular reason why (I can cite flaws, but there are honestly other Dark Eras with deeper flaws that I could get through just fine), it just really didn't gel with me.

          Originally posted by LostLight
          Like, my idea is basically hollow the House and use the empty shell it is in order to bring back the Scarlet Watch (which is from Doubting Souls) as their modern incarnation. Which is not that dofficult, as the Heritage House is very hollow in the first place (basically a number of hunter families who think that the Vigil should remain in the family, and idea already represented much better, IMO, through other groups- such as the Lucifuge, the AKD to some degree, and again, the Scarlet Watch).
          It's worth remembering that the Heritage House believes that the hunter factions shouldn't conflict with each other, and it's not a far reading outside of that to see that Heritage House has the ambition to unite factions into one global homogeny. It's that vein of thought I was commenting on.

          Though admittedly, I could have sworn that thought was text. Turns out it's not!

          Originally posted by LostLight
          I would still argue that even if Division VI would show itself useful for the Seers, they would avoid allowing it to grow in power and scale, out of the fear they may actually understand that their are being manipulated and turn against them. The best case scenario is the proposed "Seers/Vampire" alliance in which Division VI becomes a part of TFV. While it is possible to maintain the lie of Division VI on a small scale, it would be very difficult to keep it going on 3rd tier, I believe.
          I feel like this misses out on the way the mystery religion aspect of how the Orders operate, how much power and prestige the Seers have, and how their pitch can be appealing. I could readily believe the Seers could maintain a number of Tier 3 conspiracies and never really have to worry about revelations about the organization shaking it apart, and the Panopticon has a leg up on such maintenance by virtue of being the Oppression by Surveillance group.

          No, Division Six could easily be a Conspiracy once it went beyond Jones (and hypothetically the rest of his cabal).
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 08-21-2020, 11:31 AM.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

          Comment


          • #6
            This looks really cool. Gets me stoked for HtV 2e.


            “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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            • #7
              Just for fun, let's discuss a bit the potential of some fanmade organizations (not mine, as almost all of my organizations are already conspiracies, and those few compacts were written as potential conspiracies in mind, so.. yeah, not mine).

              Skin & Bones:
              Carvers: as the killers of killers, it is only a matter of time before they'll start getting involved in the law enforcement- especially if they kill one of the Hunt Club members, and we all know they have connections. Add to that the fact that the Carvers do not differe much between a serial killer and a slasher, and we may easuly see that the compact has a very unstable base to begin with, as the Code gets violated and mutilated in the name of the Vigil and since then the fall to hell is pretty short. While they do not seem to have the strong basis required for them to become a conspiracy, and it may only be a matter of time before they'll find themselves over their heads, as we are talking about fanmade groups they may actually be a good recruitment material for the Pythian Oracles, as they can relate to most of their ideology- and the Vision would take care of the rest. 1/5.

              The Dirge: being the "first line of community defense" against the undead, the Dirge has the tendency to get in conflict with the wrong people- such as TFV and Cheiron. While most of the zombies and reanimated they deal with are either lonely monsters of mindless terrors, some (such as vampires and ghosts in flesh suits) may have connections and cunning to make the Dirge's life as miserable and short as possible. While they may start to develop a well defined structure and possibly special techniques to keep the dead, well, dead, in their current state it is more likely that they will be merged into the theoretical encompassing "community defender" conspiracy, especially if it is formed around Network Zero, as they already use the later in order to coordinate their cells. 2/5.

              Silver Cross: serving as "underground doctors" of the Vigil, they mostly operate as a support group to help the warriors of the Vigil. Considering that part of their research is understanding the supernatural in order to deal with all kinds of blights, plagues and blights which copme from it, i would assume they have gathered enough raw material in order to create an very crude form of an Endowment. Yet as they operate underground clinics they need to be wary of law enforcement authorities, especially if Cheiron would decide to try and destroy/ cannibalize the compact, seeing it as both a potential rival, threat or asset. I imagine that the relation between the two groups would be like the one between Shinra and Nebula. If they would survive, however, and become more organized, they may reach 3rd Tier.. eventually. 2/5.

              Wordsmiths: so yet another psychologist compact meant for monster therapy, those ones deal mostly with vampires and their victims. They try to help those undead to mantain their humanity, supporting them through words and therapy, rncourtaging them to thin their blood in order to allow them feed on animals. While admirable, it is basically means a constant work against entropy, and while I could see them eventually developing some kind of psychological methodology meant to restrain the urges of monsters as an Endowment, I am not sure that on their own it will be enough. However, having the potential merge with the Talbot Group and the Yuri's Group it would make far more sense... even though that such union would probably not include the Habibti Ma'at, as it sounds pretty culty. On the other hand, the Habibti Ma'at are perhaps better to have their own thing, as they are less about monster therapy and more about fighting cults and supernatural abusers. 2/5.

              Terra Incognita: being a part of the larger Terra Nullius organization, they sound really like a small scale Deviant conspiracy- which means something in favor of their growth potential. They have a solid structure, connections and reputation (even if most companies would not like those environmentalists") and conduct research on all kinds of supernatural energy forms- especially pyros. Most important than all, they do seem to actually have the will to grow in power. Their main issue is resources- being a NGO, they don't have much money to pay for their hunters, and dealing with mad alchemists and Flux eating horrors is not cheap, not to mention that it limits the number of hunters they can hire. As such, while they have a solid base, gathering resources and investments (perhaps by tying themselves to "green energy" projects), they could create a base for themselves- if they'll manage to fend against their mortal rivals, not to mentionn supernatural ones. 3/5.

              Sons & Daughters of Cheshire: basically the "anti bygone" compact- which will put them in odds with most other conspiracies, especially those groups which want to preserve those relics (like the AKD). More than that, the compact seems to have actually been on the path to become a conspiracy (or, at the very least, a cult)- something which didn't end well and resulted with the modern organization. Add to that the fact that their most common enemies would probably be things like the Arisen and how small scale their organization is, and I must say that the future is not bright for the SDC. Perhaps an alliance with RAM would help them, yet a full merge is unlikely. 1/5.

              Dies Irae: so here we have another compact which actively works towards becoming a conspiracy- they have even developed/rediscovered a potential Endowment in the form of the Art of Dying. They also have their share of knowledge about demonology and the occult, as well as connection in the shadow world. While they are still growing, they have a well defined structure and goals, yet the need for resources would probably limit them, especially as some of them just poor any bit of money they earn in order to find the Art of Dying. Still, the most important factor for the group's ascension is how obssessed they are with it- they are willing to torture and kill in order to find the book, which may indeed help to push them towards them succeeding in their goal.. or may end up with some other organization eliminating them, either for their immoral actions, them becoming a cabal due to too many slashers within the conspiracy or even some organizations mistaking them for a demonic cult of some kind. 4/5.

              Dream Catchers:
              Sons of Cu Chulainn: the Sons are, without a doubt, a very mystical compact- with the ability to see through the Mask of the Fae, can open portals to the Hedge and their gease based Endowment, they have a lot in their favor for becoming a solid base for a conspiracy. However, while they are structured and defined, the thing is that neither Ireland or the irish diaspora are known to be power players in the global arena. While it does not deny them the possibility of becoming a conspiracy, I am not sure how well it would support it either, as they limit their membership to irish people only. On the other hand, as the irish diaspora are spread all around the globe and the hidden village defies location in space and time, their state is actually not that bad- so yeah, they may indeed have the means to become a conspiracy, even if they have some obstacles in their way. 4/5.

              Wilde Society: while they are also a mystical group with a potential for developing their own Endowment through the use of Beautiful Madness, the Wilde Society is much more fructured and much less focused. Indeed, the idea of a group of artists which get high of Glamour and seek muse among the fey is an alluring image, the Society simply lacks most of the needed tools in order to become something more than a loose association or artistic movement. On the other hand, they do make sense as an excellent addition to the Orchestra Fatalibus. 2/5.

              Searchlight: being a very fanatical group, they devote themselves to reclaim those lost to the Hedge and fight fetches, they may have a solid core and some reach, but I am not sure on how well they would fare on the long run. I mean, such groups don't tend to last long, and while they have higher mental stability it could eventually lead into a new, twisted form of slasherhood- not to mention how easy it is to get lost in the Hedge. On the other hand, they make much more appropriate addition to the Habibti Ma'at based conspiracy than the other support groups... unless they would disband/ become a cabal. 1/5.

              KingsRaven:
              Societe de Hades: with their knowledge about the Underworld and how to navigate within it, they may have, at the very least, a well defined occult base for an Endowment. On the other hand, they are very localized, serving specifically as the guardians of Paris's catacombs. Add to that the fact that reapers generally don't like humans who get in and out of the Below, and you'll see that they have a generally small growth potential. If they'll manage to lay low, build their numbers and create a tactic meant to deal with reapers and their like, they may eventually reach something more stable- perhaps by establishing an alliance with some local krewes. 2/5.

              Baker Street Irregulars: being what they see as real life Sherlocks, the compact probably prefers to stay as "independent, outsider advisors for supernatural crimes". With VASCU going private and the historical connections to the Society of 12 Keys, it is far more likely that they would end up merged with VASCU than them becoming their own thing... that is, unless they'll grow so obssessed towards solving crimes that they would start committing them, becomg a cabal. 1/5.

              Reality Hackers: one of the few homebrew compacts that, iirc, KingsRaven said he can see as having a real conspiracy potential, the Hackers indeed have a lot going in their favor- the Code allows them to identify the presence of supernatural threats, and in the age of successful startup companies and the watchful eye of the Principle it is very likely that they would gather enough resources and may even use their Code in order to take over Infrastructures and other tools to increase their reach. The only danger is for someone big (like Deva) trying to buy them or steal their Code- which is indeed a possibility. A merge with Network Zero is also possible, with the Code serving as the base for Monster Media. 3/5.

              Llannerch Athrawon: while they do have a lot in their favor, such as having a well defined structure of the shadow play they use in order to manipulate heroes, and are even known for developing an Endowment- which is always in a compact's favor. The thing is, that this compact have been close to become a conspiracy a number of times in the past, but every time they were on the verge of developing a new Endowment it got allegedly stolen by a far more powerful group. If they'll manage to keep hold of their new Endowment and refocus themselves, they may finally become a conspiracy. Otherwise- back to the sketchboard. 3/5.

              Ride to Damascus: yeah, being openily using "monster magic" in order to reshape Beasts may not be the thing to buy you many friends within the Vigil. While they did developed their own Endowment, it may have happened to early- they are yet to solidify their structure or build their numbers, and they are much too open about their use of fae magic. With the Code possibily registering them as "monsters" because of that (especially if we are talking about a cell of racist bastards), other, more established groups may descend upon them, stealing their Endowment while disbanding the compact. 2/5.

              Honorary Mentions:
              SG-14: while they are sponsored by one of the more powerful countries in Europe, SG-14 is terrified of becoming a conspiracy, fearing that it would lead to its own corruption. While their fructured structure may be useful for spcialization, it is also a speed bumper on stopping the group from rising in power. While they indeed have the potential to become a conspiracy in terms of knowledge, resources, reach and structure, they may require some external even in order to push them towards becoming one- like unifying with other organizations in order to become a "EU based conspiracy" or having to deal with a threat big enough that they can't fight it with on their own broken state, or one which would force them to search after the notes left by the defuncted Nazi occult organizations. Like the Contagion, for example. 4/5.


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              • #8
                Aside from the potential to develop an Endowment, I find it really difficult to be sure about which Compacts have the organisation to become Conspiracies. There's rarely enough space given to give anything beyond some often contradictory hints about how they're supposed to function as organisations.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                  Aside from the potential to develop an Endowment, I find it really difficult to be sure about which Compacts have the organisation to become Conspiracies. There's rarely enough space given to give anything beyond some often contradictory hints about how they're supposed to function as organisations.
                  Also the fact organization isnt a prerequisite to become a conspiracy. Les Mysteres (still ticked off particularly about their disbandment), cainite conspiracy, and Faithful of Shulpae show organization can be EXTREMELY loose

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

                    Also the fact organization isnt a prerequisite to become a conspiracy. Les Mysteres (still ticked off particularly about their disbandment), cainite conspiracy, and Faithful of Shulpae show organization can be EXTREMELY loose
                    It is not a requierment- but it helps, a lot. Without it, you relay on some outside factor to maintain the conspiracy. You need someone to coordinate the actions of a conspiracy for it to not break apart, be it an heirarchy of spirits, unknown patrons, temple guardians older than time or the prophets of the Ascending Ones. Even if the day-to-day hunters do not have a solid structure and organization, the thing which sits in the heart of the conspiracy must either have it, or somehow regulate every hunter cell across the globe.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                      It is not a requierment- but it helps, a lot. Without it, you relay on some outside factor to maintain the conspiracy. You need someone to coordinate the actions of a conspiracy for it to not break apart, be it an heirarchy of spirits, unknown patrons, temple guardians older than time or the prophets of the Ascending Ones. Even if the day-to-day hunters do not have a solid structure and organization, the thing which sits in the heart of the conspiracy must either have it, or somehow regulate every hunter cell across the globe.
                      True. But that level of control tends to vary. The Cainites organize themselves. Whoever manipulates them does so in very small ways, giving them access to a new rite, pointing them in direction of a vampire, it's all very small control. The Faithful of Shulpae dont even seem to have a patron other than giving word to whatever Shulpae is, and even then only ever lip service. The knights of Saint Adrian also seem to have a fairly loose structure compared to other conspiracies. Just bounty hunters with tattoos from angels.

                      If anything, what really makes a conspiracy is like minded individuals with the luck of having either some connection with a supernatural patron to having the resources to simply take control of it. Even the new Council of Bones operates on a compact like structure. Of course I wont lie, I do kinda think some conspiracies deserve the term cult instead. Because when I think conspiracy I do think "big shadowy organization with tons of resources and organization"

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                      • #12
                        I feel Conspiracies don't have to be single coherent organisations, but they probably should have been so at one time or another (unless there's a particularly good reason, like Les Mysteres).

                        Personally, it makes most sense to me that conspiracies tend to splinter apart quite quickly; kinda like tier 3 Krewes in Geist 1e (they're super-powerful, but also highly vulnerable and liable to being targeted). For example, the Maleus seem extremely close to being shattered by the death of Baudolino (he's an impressive guy, but he's ultimately just a ghoul). The tight control of the Benedictions is clearly being loosened, but by definition the Endowment is only going to become more used (I guess unless God has something to say about it).

                        As another example, I'd expect the Promethean Brotherhood to be totally nuked by mages in the near future (assuming we're using witches of anywhere near the power of the Awakened). However, that won't be the end of the Rite of Hecate; such knowledge will both appeal to the hubris of at least some mages, and every sleepwalker will have to live with the possibility that they could simply steal their master's enlightenment.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michael View Post
                          I feel Conspiracies don't have to be single coherent organisations, but they probably should have been so at one time or another (unless there's a particularly good reason, like Les Mysteres).

                          Personally, it makes most sense to me that conspiracies tend to splinter apart quite quickly; kinda like tier 3 Krewes in Geist 1e (they're super-powerful, but also highly vulnerable and liable to being targeted). For example, the Maleus seem extremely close to being shattered by the death of Baudolino (he's an impressive guy, but he's ultimately just a ghoul). The tight control of the Benedictions is clearly being loosened, but by definition the Endowment is only going to become more used (I guess unless God has something to say about it).

                          As another example, I'd expect the Promethean Brotherhood to be totally nuked by mages in the near future (assuming we're using witches of anywhere near the power of the Awakened). However, that won't be the end of the Rite of Hecate; such knowledge will both appeal to the hubris of at least some mages, and every sleepwalker will have to live with the possibility that they could simply steal their master's enlightenment.
                          You make a good point. Now that you mention it, the cainites used to be organized under a vampire in Rome I think, and I'm fairly sure that the faithful of Shulpae get implied in I think Sothis ascends in an earlier incarnation that is much more organized.

                          Though I dont feel conspiracies are bound to break up. Even the Malleus has reason to stay held together for much longer (I am, of course, biased toward that group though). Its good to remember that most conspiracy members dont even have endowments and serve as the glue to the group and away from danger. And unlike (most) monsters, they usually have the stability, temporal power, and numbers to stay together in one piece.
                          Last edited by Primordial newcomer; 08-22-2020, 08:21 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                            Though I dont feel conspiracies are bound to break up. Even the Malleus has reason to stay held together for much longer (I am, of course, biased toward that group though). Its good to remember that most conspiracy members dont even have endowments and serve as the glue to the group and away from danger.
                            Definitely, Though I think there's an element of if-you-stat-it-they-will-kill-it going on. Like, the Lucifuge, Cheiron's board or the figure behind the Cainites are not really presented to the reader, therefore if you're wondering why a supernatural being hasn't murdered them and decapitated the conspiracy?... Well, clearly they're too powerful for that to be easily done. Baudolino however is presented as basically 'just' a very cunning ghoul (I'm trying not to downplay him, he's a cool character, he just seems to have very clear limitations).

                            I should also add that from my perspective, breaking up is generally a positive feature. By and large, a unified conspiracy makes the group vulnerable without really bringing many benefits.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post

                              Definitely, Though I think there's an element of if-you-stat-it-they-will-kill-it going on. Like, the Lucifuge, Cheiron's board or the figure behind the Cainites are not really presented to the reader, therefore if you're wondering why a supernatural being hasn't murdered them and decapitated the conspiracy?... Well, clearly they're too powerful for that to be easily done. Baudolino however is presented as basically 'just' a very cunning ghoul (I'm trying not to downplay him, he's a cool character, he just seems to have very clear limitations).

                              I should also add that from my perspective, breaking up is generally a positive feature. By and large, a unified conspiracy makes the group vulnerable without really bringing many benefits.
                              I dont think you're downplaying Baudolino. The reason I think Baudolino can keep going is because we have the leader of Hotogisu outplaying the vampires of Japan just fine (it is in Japan right?), so I think the dude who plays games of intrigue with a devil woman can keep himself high on vitae

                              And yeah I agree it's good to both have compacts that build up to something greater and conspiracies breaking down. And I will admit the reason I'm seeming "against" it is due to some creative choices for 2nd edition that irk me (I'm sure you can guess what those choices are lol). But again, while I disagree overall with tearing away some groups to show it, I do understand that it highlights how volatile that Vigil can be.

                              Also LostLight, your idea for the Union becoming a conspiracy due to a app game thing. Is there nothing supernatural about it? I dont mean that in a rude way, I'm asking because I can see a totally human group manipulating them for that (heck, be it due to the Abbey developing AR-gaming for kicks or Utopia Now's the Cure developing an app to help hunt monsters by proxy)

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