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  • #31
    I'm so happy that you have said it! That was what I have actually had in mind before writing the post- it makes so much sense of the Judges not being a conspiracy, while the Canaanite having one, showing the themes that one doesn't choose to be a Judge but is chosen, and that the Hebrews enter to the Canaan are a lot more anarchic while the Canaanite should have a solid base in that land. It is simply that I've thought that the Hebrews need to have some kind of organization to represent them. Maybe a compact based around the priests and artificers of the Tabernacle? Or even just a group of warriors who fight to reclaim the land?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by LostLight View Post
      I'm so happy that you have said it!
      I have the power to envoke those kinds of emotions with a quick post? I must use this power responsibly.

      Mwahahahaha!

      QUOTE=LostLight;n418945]Maybe a compact based around the priests and artificers of the Tabernacle? Or even just a group of warriors who fight to reclaim the land?[/QUOTE]Sounds like a question for Glamourweaver.


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      • #33
        Anyway, I'm going to start working on the Canaanite group of hunters. I think I'm going to use them as a big and loose organization (there a number of tribes during that time, after all), with a focus on appeasing their many idols and gods. Anat really seems to be like a good patron for them, with her being the warrior goddess who saved Baal from his enemies a number of times, and they see most monsters as the spawns of the "evil gods" Yam (the sea god) and Mot (the death god). While they see Anat as their role model, I don't think they should limit themselves to her- there are different gods for different things, after all, and some may govern even only a single city or folk.

        The cult of Moloch would, as I see it, be in a conspiracy scale- for while the Valley of Hinnom is infamous for being for being a center of Moloch warship, the sacrifice was done outside in other places in the Mediterranean because of the Phoenicians (Carthage for example). Moloch itself would be a mystery- the priests would simply encourage the rites, not revealing the true nature which powers it. The cult is focused around preforming the sacrifices and promising power, success and wealth to any one who participate, and they don't really care about why it works- as long as the the hungry fires are fed. In short, it doesn't matter whether Moloch is a god, a demon or just the name for the ritual- preforming the ritual is what's important.

        I'll give some thought about the Hebrew groups later. No offense, but I'm still waiting that Glamourweaver would finish KSI21, so I'm not sure if he'll participate in working on this homebrew.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
          Sounds like a question for Glamourweaver.
          I didn't actually end up buying the slot because no one volunteered to go in on it with me and I couldn't afford it on my own.

          But I am interested in homebrew tinkering with the Shoftim as a Judaic Holy Miracle wielding Tier 3 group (I'm finding I'm really uncomfortable with the word "Conspiracy" in a lot of cases - I mean, I'm fine with it for some groups like VALKYRIE, but especially with a cultural group who have bigoted conspiracy-theories thrust at them, I find the term too loaded). My idea for the Vigil for Rome/Requiem for Rome era is that they will lose that direct connection with summonable miracles and drop to Tier 2 with the loss of the Temple and the Diaspora. Later the search for the True Name of G-d to reconnect them to the Divine will give rise to Ma'asei Merkavah, a Kabbalistic Tier 3 group that uses the Shemot of Angels (Qashmallim) as their Endowment.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            I didn't actually end up buying the slot because no one volunteered to go in on it with me and I couldn't afford it on my own.
            I raised my hand, I just asked for an actual pitch first.

            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            (I'm finding I'm really uncomfortable with the word "Conspiracy" in a lot of cases - I mean, I'm fine with it for some groups like VALKYRIE, but especially with a cultural group who have bigoted conspiracy-theories thrust at them, I find the term too loaded).
            Eh, there's just as much nonsense Conspiracy theories thrown at Catholicism and I don't think I've ever heard any complaints about that. Personally I find the idea that I'd need special treatment that the Catholics don't get more offputting than Onyx Path writing a sinister Jewish conspiracy controlling the banks.

            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            But I am interested in homebrew tinkering with the Shoftim as a Judaic Holy Miracle wielding Tier 3 group My idea for the Vigil for Rome/Requiem for Rome era is that they will lose that direct connection with summonable miracles and drop to Tier 2 with the loss of the Temple and the Diaspora. Later the search for the True Name of G-d to reconnect them to the Divine will give rise to Ma'asei Merkavah, a Kabbalistic Tier 3 group that uses the Shemot of Angels (Qashmallim) as their Endowment.
            I can't really see the Shoftim having any continuanity with later Kabbalistic group(s).

            Using Sampson as the bibilical model for a Judges era empowerd Hunter. His power comes from a direct blessing from the big guy, not scholarship. It's a completely different theme.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post

              I can't really see the Shoftim having any continuanity with later Kabbalistic group(s).

              Using Sampson as the bibilical model for a Judges era empowerd Hunter. His power comes from a direct blessing from the big guy, not scholarship. It's a completely different theme.
              We're talking about probably a millennium + separation here, so "continuity" is stretching it. But the connection at all is that the Shoftim had blessings directly (from whatever source - the WoD does not assume the existence of G-d), the later scholars find Shemot in searching for those blessings (hence the scholarship).


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              • #37
                Maybe, but I do believe that the Shoftim should be very different then a religious group of hunters- they were leaders, warlords and theocrats, and when the miracles they called down from God were on the scale of Mages, not Benedictions. What ever the secrets the modern Jewish hunters has found, they are a pale shadow of the might of the biblical judges and prophets.

                Which is why I think that they could work better as something in the style of Slashers- that is, an expansion to the regular "hunter template". Anyone (well, any Israeli) could be chosen to be a Judge, and they way they express that status is different from person to person.

                But it is not to say there shouldn't be a group of Israeli priests who work the more "common miracles". I think that a group of members of priests of tribe Levi and the artisans which protect the Tabernacle could be a good way to implant those guys. Another Hebrew compact could be something like a biblical Union- a band Israelis from all tribes who fight to protect their reclaimed homeland from both the pagans and the monsters who stalk in the darkness.

                I'll also give some thought about how some conspiracies may be represented in the Era. The Ascending Ones and the AKD may have a representation, and so maybe there is an ancient incarnation of the Cheiron Group. The Lucifuge may be a problem- from one side, there is no reason why they shouldn't exist in that time. From the other, there is no Lucifer during that time. The closest we could tie them in is the Canaanite god Shahar (which, some claim, is the source for the Lucifer's archetype), but I'm not sure if this is the best option. Maybe connecting them to Asmodai or the Nephilim could work better?


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                  Maybe, but I do believe that the Shoftim should be very different then a religious group of hunters- they were leaders, warlords and theocrats, and when the miracles they called down from God were on the scale of Mages, not Benedictions. What ever the secrets the modern Jewish hunters has found, they are a pale shadow of the might of the biblical judges and prophets.
                  Yeah - I wasn't suggesting the Shemot of Ma'asei Merkavah measured up to the miracles of the Biblical era, just that they were discovered in pursuit of that lost conduit to the Divine. They haven't found said conduit, it is in fact still their driving goal.

                  That said, I don't think you can break the power curve of Hunters as much as you're suggesting and still have the game be Hunter the Vigil. The earth shattering Biblical miracles that break far beyond the power of Benedictions may have occurred, but they weren't at the beck and call of the Shoftim. The occurred at G-d's behest (or the behest of whatever force the Shoftim call G-d), not their's.


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                  • #39
                    The Book of Judges takes place long before the first temple. That means there's a lot of biblical history in-between the Judges and the loss of that conduit to the divine, which probably lasted until at least the prophet Ezekiel who lived after the destruction of the second temple. Given that this is the bible time and place, chock full of miracles and political instability

                    You have the Judges and their followers; and at the same time you have the priesthood who might or might not have had Endowments of their own. Possibly not, since the priesthood isn't in that great shape during Judges and won't be until Sameul.

                    Then of course after the Judges you see Saul, the first king and kings become a core focus on the bible. So Judges would probably be replaced with a more official military force (such that there was in those days). It's only later that Solomon builds the first temple.

                    And the whole time you have various prophets running around doing their thing. The Macabees might well be led by a very late judge, or they might be purely mortal fighters.


                    That's what I mean when I say I don't think there would be "continuity" between the judges and Hakollel/Ma'asei. There are several clean breaks, I think the king led hunters would be a replacement, not an evolution, of the Judges. To a modern organization the judges are unlikely to be seen as more interesting than the biblical baseline - given the lack of sources other than the Torah and the fact their Endowment was handed to them by god and not something that they earned or created; and thus not something that can be reproduced.


                    That said I do like the idea of searching for a channel to the divine.



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                    • #40
                      One last chance guys! Go vote in the poll!


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                      • #41
                        so.. many.. options.....go Judges!


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                        • #42
                          Hunters!! Unite, go Book of Judges, lets beat Forsaken Rome!!

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                          • #43
                            and we lost by an hair....... oh well... time to return to homebrew.....


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                            • #44
                              So... Hunter didn't win a single vote?

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                              • #45
                                nope- unless Hunter would be revealed in Japan's "mystery setting"


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