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  • Lucifuge's Demons (and a 2E update question)

    A pretty straight-forward question: Does it ever say which Demons the Lucifuge summons or gain their power from? Are they from Inferno, or one of the many places Mages refer to as Lower Depths? Obviously there's some headcanon available here (for source of power, I'd probably go for Inferno demons who had "have intercourse with me" as part of a pact they made with a female mortal, and thus Inferno for what demons they summon). Obviously Hunter is mildly less. . .cross-over friendly when it comes to metaphysics and cosmology, so I also wouldn't be surprised if it never really says.

    For the 2E question: Are there any general guidelines for translating powers? Specifically I'm looking at Family Vestment's ability to grant Armor 5, which is pretty intense. And, I suppose, Benedictions 'Armor of St. [Someone]' which can give Armor 5 as well. It's not really a problem to wing it myself, but I figured I'd look to see if there were hard and fast rules/guidelines for such a thing.

    Also, whoever changed how Elixers worked in Mortal Remains: thank you so very much.

  • #2
    inferno is the lower depths, and yes presumably it is the inferno. then again, there are like 9 different things all called demons, so its up to you if its the same.

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    • #3
      Hah, yeah, sorry, that's what I meant: Inferno, or one of the OTHER Lower Depths. Sorry for being less than clear there. But thanks!

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      • #4
        IMO the tone of the Lucifuge's powers fits the Inferno too well to make it anything else. Not to mention that Inferno refers to the Lucifuge at at least two points.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Enokh View Post
          A pretty straight-forward question: Does it ever say which Demons the Lucifuge summons or gain their power from?
          Not really! The demons of Hunter: the Vigil are an ambiguous presentation of various devilish phenomena, sometimes resembling the Inferno, once in awhile resembling the God-Machine angels or something else. The Inferno is the closest single fit, and the Inferno book presents the Lucifuge's rivals, the Children of the Seventh Generation, as an associated phenomenon. But overall, Hunter's demons are as well defined as Hunter's witches, which are not necessarily not the Awakened, but certainly don't always match up one-to-one.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by SunlessNick View Post
            Inferno refers to the Lucifuge at at least two points.
            Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post

            the Inferno book presents the Lucifuge's rivals, the Children of the Seventh Generation, as an associated phenomenon.
            There we go. As close as we're going to get, I imagine! Thanks, both of you! Am hanging out at my local gaming store prepping for a game this weekend by reading a bunch of Lucifuge stuff for a new inductee to WoD and figured I'd ask on here while I read.

            Mortal Remains connecting Lucifuge to the Unchained suuuuure is interesting! I like the idea of Lucifuge herself being an Angel. What a neat concept.

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            • #7
              I sincerely hope they keep the broad umbrella. One of the coolest things I ever did to scare the crap out of my players was having the a group of Lucifuge summon a True Fae and not even bat an eye at it.


              Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Feminine pronouns, please.

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              • #8
                It's intentionally ambiguous. At my own table it's Inferno Dominions (who have the Manifest numina to be the physical Greater Demons). Their metaphysical link to Spirits, Ghosts, and Goetia (via Diaboli) is why Lucifuge powers work on the broader range of ephemera.


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  I sincerely hope they keep the broad umbrella. One of the coolest things I ever did to scare the crap out of my players was having the a group of Lucifuge summon a True Fae and not even bat an eye at it.
                  I sincerly hope they don't.

                  The Lucifuge summoning a True Fae is perfectly fine. The Lucifuge summoning a True Fae because True Fae are demons is immersion breaking. Either explicitly say that the Lucifuge's powers work on everything and give a justification for why inherited demonoic powers can summon True Fae or limit them to actual demons.

                  It's not like Lucifuge need Castigation to summon a True Fae. Mortals can do it in the right circumstances, and as princes of Hell they've got no shortage of wealth to make turning up and playing nice in the Faerie's best interests. There's even authentic folklore that the Gentry have to pay tribute to hell.


                  “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                  My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                    The Lucifuge summoning a True Fae is perfectly fine. The Lucifuge summoning a True Fae because True Fae are demons is immersion breaking. Either explicitly say that the Lucifuge's powers work on everything and give a justification for why inherited demonoic powers can summon True Fae or limit them to actual demons.

                    It's not like Lucifuge need Castigation to summon a True Fae. Mortals can do it in the right circumstances, and as princes of Hell they've got no shortage of wealth to make turning up and playing nice in the Faerie's best interests. There's even authentic folklore that the Gentry have to pay tribute to hell.
                    Depends... I could certainly run a game in which True Fae are actually the demons from Inferno or as an explanation for most of those type of entities (other worldly types making deals and seducing mortals). It is not something that fits the standard nWoD, but if you want a cleaner less crowded world it certainly works. Keeping things a bit vague help individual storytellers adapt the setting to their tastes, so that is a good thing. It is not as if for most campaigns it is going to matter all that much...

                    Note that folklore, Gentry and devils is a bit of a mixed bag, since Christianity had a reason to both demonify and lessen the power of the old gods which as a result eventually became both gentry and devils in folklore. Fact is that in folklore there is not nearly as clear a seperation between the various supernatural entities as within the core splat books.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Madfox11 View Post
                      Depends... I could certainly run a game in which True Fae are actually the demons from Inferno or as an explanation for most of those type of entities (other worldly types making deals and seducing mortals). It is not something that fits the standard nWoD, but if you want a cleaner less crowded world it certainly works.
                      Certainly you could, but I think the point stands because in such a case you'd be admitting the Fae into the ranks of the Lucifuge's ancestors. But the background of the Lucifuge posits them as the descendants of a particular type of being - or even a specific individual within it - so I do think it's worth specifying (for a chronicle if not the for the books) which entities they are, and limiting the banishing/binding and familiar abilities to those alone.

                      I've heard the argument that that's too limiting on those powers, but I don't buy that - a lot of Endowment powers are only useful against one type of creature, and the Lucifuge have plenty of Castigations that function more widely.

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                      • #12
                        all the thing about the Lucifuge is kinda confusing for a number of reasons-

                        a) Hunter's Demons are a broad category of many different beings hunters usually lump under a single title (like they usually do)
                        b) Castigations are described to effect many different beings including Hunter's Demons, which makes things even more confusing about their origin.
                        c) After Inferno, most agree that the Lucifuge's lineage come from a single, definitive origin (Inferno)

                        In sort, the reason for all of the debates and confusion comes from the fact that a later (none Hunter, even) book came, and it was cool enough to accept what it had to offer (unlike other blue books which shall not be named). Actually, I've talked about the subject once, when it looked strange to me that beings who gain their powers from Inferno could command and make contact with the Abyss, for each of the realms kinda see the other as a natural enemy.

                        Now, there are a number of options for this. The first is that because the chances are that most of the confusion and contradiction about what a "demon" is come from early material meeting new material, Hunter's 2nd Edition may change how Castigations work. I'm not sure how I feel about that option, and it is not relevant for now- so let's skip it. The other option is ignoring Inferno and keeping the Lucifuge's origin as mystery- which is even harder to do, since you can't put the genei back in the bottle. The third option is start making explanations for how Castigations work- which may stretch Suspension of Disbelief a bit. I mean, if you had one explanation for everything it may have worked- but there isn't. You gonna make a number of explanations, each per being which may be effected by Castigations: Spirits+Ghosts+Geotia? It is Inferno's corruption. True Fae? They can't be corrupted by Hell, so let's use the "tribute to Hell". Abyss? their demon parents has made them into some sort of living weapons. Supernal Demons? they resonate with the concept of Sin? Descent's Demons?....

                        In sort, too many explanations- unless you tie everything to Hell, which can work only for some games.

                        The last option (which I use for now) is that there is a difference between being a Child of 7th Generation and actually knowing Castigations. The first is your origin- you have certain properties because of your lineage, and have some potential to do cool things. Castigations, however, are things you learn- they are rites discovered by the Lady which you imprint upon your soul and connect it to Hell. The fact that you can manipulate your soul to do some weird and terrible things which it shouldn't do (even by the standards of those who created you) is something which is really a part of being an hunter. Your demon ancestors didn't meant you to command Hell, the Abyss and the Fae all as one- but you do, and you do it without even understanding why what you do is wrong. Sure, those are unnatural rites which taint all that is holy- but you are an unnatural being who taints all that is holy by yourself. There is nothing special here, no matter what your pet demon is telling to you. Well, maybe it is a bit weird. Maybe you should check it out. Maybe the Lady has some answers..

                        In sort, you are an hunter, and hunters do all kinds of weird things which breaks the delicate cosmologies of other gamelines. Have fun!


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          a) Hunter's Demons are a broad category of many different beings hunters usually lump under a single title (like they usually do)
                          Which kind of bugs me. If there's one group in the WoD who wouldn't lump different things togeather it's Hunters. We all know what happens when a Hunter whips out holy water against the Changeling who looks like a horned red guy. The Hunter dies.

                          Obviously competence varies and nobody has an accurate map of the WoD cosmos. But you can't ignore the fact that what Hunters want and need is accurate ways to say what powers this monster has and what kind of bullets will hurt it.

                          Even the Malleus Maleficarum have an entire Order who's philosophy amounts to "figure out how to fight it now and worry about how this fits with The Bible later".

                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          b) Castigations are described to effect many different beings including Hunter's Demons, which makes things even more confusing about their origin.
                          Not to mention that the choice of which beings doesn't make much sense.

                          Infernal Demons and Unchained Demons are included; but True Fae are not. The Inferno has much more in common with the Gentry than with the Unchained.

                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          Hunter's 2nd Edition may change how Castigations work.
                          It probably will. Look at Seitokuken - it mentions both demons and spirits. 1E Castigation treats Demons as a form of Spirit.

                          I approve of this direction.

                          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          Castigations, however, are things you learn- they are rites discovered by the Lady which you imprint upon your soul and connect it to Hell.
                          This is probably going to be the case - but IMO it conflicts with the whole lineage theme at the core of the Lucifuge. Ah well



                          “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                          My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                          Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                            Which kind of bugs me. If there's one group in the WoD who wouldn't lump different things togeather it's Hunters. We all know what happens when a Hunter whips out holy water against the Changeling who looks like a horned red guy. The Hunter dies.

                            Obviously competence varies and nobody has an accurate map of the WoD cosmos. But you can't ignore the fact that what Hunters want and need is accurate ways to say what powers this monster has and what kind of bullets will hurt it.

                            Even the Malleus Maleficarum have an entire Order who's philosophy amounts to "figure out how to fight it now and worry about how this fits with The Bible later".

                            Not to mention that the choice of which beings doesn't make much sense.

                            Infernal Demons and Unchained Demons are included; but True Fae are not. The Inferno has much more in common with the Gentry than with the Unchained.
                            What hunters shouldn't do what what they don't do are completely different things. At the end of the day, most supernatural communities don't even really know what the hell (hah) is going on, and they've got things going for them like "supernatural ways to find things out", "not dying in droves while pursuing the Vigil", and sometimes "we don't age, making a running Oral History far easier". There are exceptions, of course -- the Malleus group you mentioned is a fantastic example of how a group of Hunters, with the proper mindset and roots in a long-term organization like The Vatican, can do better than basically guess at what's what. But they're clearly the exception.

                            The True Fae might have more in common with Inferno and the Unchained, but the True Fae are WAY out there in terms of obfuscation. They're the boogie-man to a group of people that are notoriously hard to track down and are among the most paranoid of splats.

                            That being said, I do hope (and, based on a few posts/lines, expect) Hunter2 will be more consolidated in how it functions and what it tells the players. That being said, I dearly hope that the confusion of what's what when it comes to the Hunt is still present, because it'd be pretty weird if it wasn't.

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                            • #15
                              So what happens when a hunter tosses water on a horned red changeling....who has a frailty to holy water? The Hunter lives.
                              So what happens when that hunter goes and talks to the rest of the cell of the hunter who died trying the exact same thing? Confusion, and any number of answers from there.

                              Honestly, I find the assertion that hunters don't lump things together to be absurd, and it was one of my biggest problems with Mortal Remains. Hunters aren't in a position to see the big picture, and this is why they make a lot of the choices they end up making. The phrase "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" is always true for hunters. Consider that this is a group where almost every single on of them has a baseline answer to most problems in the form of "Destroy the head and set it on fire". Yes, they seem like they are in a better position to understand things that the supernatural themselves-they aren't deeply involved with a supernatural model of reality, and thus can compare things. But the big problem with this assumption is what a lack of a pre-existing model does. The templates know a little something, and it's easier for them to see what is not because they know their lines. Hunters, by contrast, have to string things along case by case, and in that situation, it's easier to base things on what works them rather than what they actually are. That's all before you go into the aforementioned fact that each group has their own bases and models they try and shove everything into If any group is, in reality, likely to get your demony goodness in my gooey changeling, it's hunters.

                              In a similar vein, I dislike the assertion that the Lucifuge and L'Enfant Diabolique draw from strictly the Inferno.(And yes, I read the section in Inferno) The sidebar in the first Hunter binding a bunch of disparate portions of the other gamelines under their umbrella together created a great iconic base that also asked some great questions and created a great setting mystery for players to answer that. It made them a collection of dark and fallen families embracing one another under the same idea expressed by a very powerful mythos, like a proto-Beast Family ideal. It was compelling because it challenged assertions, which is what the World of Darkness is all about-the fact that you can dig and dig and dig and never find the answer.

                              That was always fascinating to me. Yes, I like playing the prince of hell, but I like playing a prince of darkness who never quite knows what he'll find when he turn the rock over better. But I've had this argument with Raven before and it never goes anywhere. Us thinking the other is wrong is nothing new.

                              PS: For the record, in reference to the sidebar and on what Castigation affects, the books says "Most hunters don’t know (or care) enough to distinguish fallen angels of the Pit, spirits from the spirit world, unnatural blasphemies from the Abyss, or bizarre nightmares from the realm of dreams." Given the way the word play in Hunter works as well as Dancers in the Dusk not being out yet, I don't see how people can't read that last one as being the True Fae, so that entire "Castigations don't affect True Fae" doesn't make a lick of sense.


                              Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

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