Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[Witchfinders] Goetic Gospels in 2E

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Witchfinders] Goetic Gospels in 2E

    I’m preparing to run Mage 2E chronicle plot about Knights of Saint George. I wanted to use their Endowment, but there are some problems when converting those powers to 2E ruleset. Here are those topics:
    1. Gospels of Beleth have only 3 levels? There are no higher powers on those? If yes, did someone make fan write up of 4 & 5 dot?
    2. Gospels use extensive mechanic of Meditative State. How does he would work in 2E games? Would he works just like described in Witchfinders, on page 129?
    3. Do Goetic Demons from Gospels are Goetia from Mage? Because now Goetia do not have Manifestation, so they are only ephemerals in Twilight, by Mage 2E rules. Would they be under Mind or Mind + Spirit Arcanum previews? Also – Do Gospels Demons would be Abyss Tainted?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 09-30-2016, 05:59 AM.


    Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
    My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

  • #2
    1) yes, and it annoyed a number of people. I believe there were few threads on the subject, including some homebrew, but I didn't save the links
    2) I'll have to check for the exact mechanics to answer that (I don't remember mechanics by heart)
    3) That is for you to decide- the Goetic Demons of the Knights are, undoubtedly, connected to Goetic Magic at least in the way it was described in 1E, considering the emphasis about conquering one's sins and vices and turning them against their enemies. Do they operate in the same way regular Goetics work or not is something for you to decide without an official translation. Again, I'll have to check for the actual mechanics and description of the Endowment if Manifestation is required, but even if it does hunters are famous for doing things they shouldn't be able to do. As for Abyssal Taint- while it is, more or less, a fan consensus that the Faceless Angels are Abyssal beings (especially since the Gospels are "anti magic" abilities), the canon itself does not confirm it, and there is even a sidebar that says that they could be anything- even bound Supernal Old Gods. If you decide that their origin is Abyssal, and that fact is important to your Chronicle and would make a more interesting story for your players, than yes, by all means.


    My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

    On a Dragonlance-reading break. Surprise homebrew may still happen :P
    I now blog in here

    Comment


    • #3
      so- I've checked the mechanics a bit, and I don't think that the Meditative State of the Knights should be changed, considering that Meditation is, practically, the same. As for manifestation- while the demons are described as "manifested", I'm not sure how much they mean them to be physical manifestations. When I've used them, they were more of a "background images" and not as physical beings. Again, whether or not they are true Goetia or perhaps the have some extra powers thanks to their origin is for you to be decided, but I've always saw them as mindless constructs crafted by the Knights.


      My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

      On a Dragonlance-reading break. Surprise homebrew may still happen :P
      I now blog in here

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        As for manifestation- while the demons are described as "manifested", I'm not sure how much they mean them to be physical manifestations. When I've used them, they were more of a "background images" and not as physical beings. Again, whether or not they are true Goetia or perhaps the have some extra powers thanks to their origin is for you to be decided, but I've always saw them as mindless constructs crafted by the Knights.
        It's a question if they should be in Twilight only, or in real world to be seen?


        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
        My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

        Comment


        • #5
          I've always assumed that they are seen- but that's more of an aesthetics more than anything else.


          My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

          On a Dragonlance-reading break. Surprise homebrew may still happen :P
          I now blog in here

          Comment


          • #6
            If they are full Manifested, then they will work like Goetic Demons of the Clavicularius and the Bene Ashmedai - Goetia of Mind, entrapped in body made of Spirits ephemera to make it really interacting with mundane reality.


            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
            My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

            Comment


            • #7
              Notice that there is a sidebar exactly about the subject- it states that the demons are meant to serve more as flavor text, yet if it matters treat them like spirits. I understand from that that they are physically manifested. The exact metaphysics about how and why is left for you to decide. Is it some hedge magic system which mix elements from Mind and Spirit? Is it the dreams of sleeping gods which break law and reason and force themselves into reality? Is it the Abyss which defies limitation and reason? The Knights won't tell you- and if they will, it is a lie. They always lie.

              Also, notice that while some of the Endowments treat the demons as physical beings, others seem to take more "subtle" approach- Lie of the Heart, for example, hides in the hunter's soul, which is not even a Twilight state. You should look at each Gospel and decide which Endowment requires which kind of manifestation, if any.


              My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

              On a Dragonlance-reading break. Surprise homebrew may still happen :P
              I now blog in here

              Comment


              • #8
                As LostLight says, the "goetic demons" are flavour text. You can make the resultant effects related to the Mind arcanum if desired - and able to be protected against with Mind Shielding spills - but ultimately that's up to you.

                Goetia, though, is a name Mages chose for the entities of the Astral and, like Atlantis, it's one they borrowed from a pre-existing source. The idea of goetic demons as emanations of the mind is a thought that derives from Aleister Crowley, to my knowledge (someone feel free to correct me on this), with the concept of the Solomon-style demonic summoning and binding being as old as the Renaissance (and older still, but the Ars Goetia dates from around then).

                As such, don't feel it necessary to bind one to the other. The Knights could simply be working off of a name they picked up because it felt right as well, or they could be the true inheritors of the Goetic arts and the Awakened just stole the name. Or Mages could be right, because, y'know, sometimes they are.

                Also worth adding is that while it is strongly hinted that the Faceless Angels are Abyssal in origin, they might not be. In fact, there might be more than one origin possible for them and, indeed, there might be many varieties of Faceless Angel. Perhaps the Faceless Angels are the Exarchs (or servants of the Gate), or perhaps they're humanity's collective memory of the Quiescence. Or, again, they could just be what they look like: Anunaki, lurking and hungry.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think as how Goetic Demons of Knights are 'proper' Goetia, of Mind & Spirit from Mage. You know, those 'manifested' in real world. Would this change anything in mechanics?


                  Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                  My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wouldn't recommend changing the mechanics, personally, no. Whatever it is the Knights summon, it exists solely to cause the listed effect and should ideally be treated just like any other power. A Mage might try to exorcise, banish, or otherwise control the demon if you went this route, in which case I'd just give the thing a Withstand/Health rating equal to the successes rolled on activation and have any effect sufficient to banish, command, or otherwise destroy the demon reduce it to astral essence and see it vanish.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another way to look at it is that the "demon" is nothing more than a visual representation of a Nightmare-like power (but rather than Beasts' Nightmares drawn from the Primordial Dream, Goetic Gospels draw it from the Knight's own Vice/Onieros or from a similar region of the greater Astral, using the Knight as a link/conduit).


                      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                        I wouldn't recommend changing the mechanics, personally, no. Whatever it is the Knights summon, it exists solely to cause the listed effect and should ideally be treated just like any other power. A Mage might try to exorcise, banish, or otherwise control the demon if you went this route, in which case I'd just give the thing a Withstand/Health rating equal to the successes rolled on activation and have any effect sufficient to banish, command, or otherwise destroy the demon reduce it to astral essence and see it vanish.
                        If it is still some Mind-related power, they can 'counterspell' it on Mind. By making it Mind+Spirit 'powers', I limit possible counters to those having Mind & Spirit Arcana. Or so I understand rules on Counterspell and Clash of Wills.


                        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                        My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You misunderstand, to my knowledge. Counterspelling only affects spells.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                            You misunderstand, to my knowledge. Counterspelling only affects spells.
                            This is correct. Even with Universal Countermagic, it specifies that it requires the countered effect to be an Awakened spell.


                            Darkframe - Crossover setting that puts Chronicles of Darkness in the far future that is Warframe.

                            "The weeping in the world will not decrease if we do not weep together."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Again, I recommend the Goetic Spirits sidebar at page 135. It gives the answer for the question- that is, that unless your target can interact with spirits (and knows that she has to deal with them), they are no more than flavor text. If she can, it says specifically what they can and can't do to them. The book itself, out of pure simplicity and the fact it is self contained and at 1e, suggest using the spirit rules. Considering you want to treat them as Abyssal Goetia in your game (which is appropriate), you could treat them as some primitive Acamoth formed from the dreams of the Faceless Angels by the Gospels. Just follow the guidelines and you should be fine.


                              My Homebrew Signature- Because I need one. If you use any of it, please share with me how it went!

                              On a Dragonlance-reading break. Surprise homebrew may still happen :P
                              I now blog in here

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X