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[Theory] Supernal is ‘ordered’ Abyss

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  • [Theory] Supernal is ‘ordered’ Abyss

    Watching lately Marvel’s Doctor Strange and reading Locke & Key comic series, I come to some brave theory...

    What if Supernal Realms are coming from the same source as Abyss, only that they are ‘ordered’, when Void is force of pure chaos and impossibility? That first mages ( or Atlantis ) harnessed chaotic energies of Abyss and chained them to stable Symbols running reality, limiting madness of sorcerers.

    If even this is not main gameline assumption, what changes would be needed to game to accommodate this point of view?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-09-2016, 03:40 AM.


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  • #2
    One of my interpretations is, more or less, similar- the Abyss is everything the Supernal is not. That is, both are collection of symbols, and as such all come from the same "origin"- but where the Supernal mean things, the Abyss is defined by negativity. Every symbol which is not part of the Supernal (and as such, does not exist) is the "Abyss", which means it can only be defined by not being the Supernal (because it does not exist). The first humans has defined the world around them, collecting the symbols of the world and by doing so created the Supernal- and by defining what "is", they also created "what isn't", and forced the Abyss- which previously didn't existed- into existence. It never forgave them for that.


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    • #3
      Is an interesting theory. The first mages, working with the raw chaos of creation to birth a source of more stable magic resonates well with lots of creation myths all over the world. I like it.


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      • #4
        You don't have to change anything to accommodate that view.

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        • #5
          It's the belief system of the Scelesti with less coherence.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
            You don't have to change anything to accommodate that view.
            Do not Paradox is 'eating' magic by RAW? In this theory-view, it should not, as magic is the same as Paradox - only Paradox is 'wild', why Supernal Magic is 'tamed'.
            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-09-2016, 08:02 AM.


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            • #7
              Paradox simply changes and corrupts cast spells. I think it's exactly what you're after. However, the piece of abyss in Sleepers that leads to Dissonance will unravel cast spells.


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              • #8
                This idea was already suggested in the Scelesti section of the Left Hand Path book. You don't have to change anything, since its already a theory in Awakening. Of course, its likely going to stay just a theory, because its impossible to go back in time to directly observe such an occurance, but if you add mage research that lends weight to the idea, much like we have weight behind the idea of the Big Bang, you're good to go.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  Do not Paradox is 'eating' magic by RAW? In this theory-view, it should not, as magic is the same as Paradox - only Paradox is 'wild', why Supernal Magic is 'tamed'.
                  No, Paradox doesn't eat magic.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                    No, Paradox doesn't eat magic.
                    Mage 2E corebook seems to point other way around:

                    Originally posted by Mage 2E, p.115
                    Casting the Spell
                    Once all dice penalties and bonuses are calculated, including any penalties from Paradox, the player rolls dice. A single success on the casting means the spell effect takes place.
                    Originally posted by Mage 2E, p.116
                    If a single success is rolled on the Paradox dice, a Paradox occurs.
                    The Abyss taints the spell and, potentially, the area around the spell’s subject. The Paradox imposes a dice penalty to the spellcasting roll equal to its successes. Whether or not this makes the spell fail, a Paradox anomaly occurs. If the spellcasting results in a dramatic failure, the mage incurs a Paradox Condition as well.
                    If Paradox successes can lower spellcasting roll to 0 dices, it's 'eating magic' in my book.


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                    • #11
                      No, it's corrupting it. Corruption might involve weakening the effect, but it's not simple consumption.

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                      • #12
                        If you summon Intruder with your spell, and cannot cast spell because of it, I say that Abyss 'kills/eats' Supernal. It also more obvious in Supernal Being Summoning:

                        Originally posted by Mage 2E, p. 96
                        Once the being runs out of Corpus, it vanishes. The denizens can sense when their time is running out, and usually attempt to get back into the summoning circle, so that they can go directly home.

                        If, however, the creature “dies” outside of the summoning circle, or is killed by a deliberate magical attack, it cannot use the path laid down by the mage to reach its home again. Instead, it vanishes into the Abyss. This is obvious to anyone watching — black tendrils may extend from the walls and rip it to shreds, or an Abyssal being might manifest to collect it.

                        In any event, directly contributing to the death of a Supernal entity in this way is an Act of Hubris for Falling Wisdom.


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                        • #13
                          A Supernal being vanishing into the Abyss is not the same as saying it's been eaten which implies a cessation of existence.

                          In fact, note the fact that it says the Supernal being "dies", the quotation marks let you know that they in fact don't die, at least in the usual sense despite any similarities to death.

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                          • #14
                            This and that are separate issues. Supernal creatures have to bridge over the Abyss before coming to reality in the first place. Dying outside of a safe path means that they fall instead of staying on the bridge when they're being "banished" forcefully. This is not the Abyss eating the Supernal so much as the Supernal beings "falling" into the Abyss like an angel falling from heaven to be corrupted into a demon. Creatures and spells are not the same thing at all.

                            The section on paradox specifically talks about tainting and warping spells. The book talks about paradox and the Abyss making the spell fly out of control, which is it is opposed by Wisdom, the stat that represents control over magic. Then, there's the fact that Paradox can make spells stronger rather than weaker. Irregardless of your dice roll getting zero successes due to paradox, magic still happens. Its just wildly out of your control and doesn't do what you want. That's completely opposite to the idea of "eating magic."

                            I'm sorry, but the book doesn't support that view at all. If you want to run things that way, more power to you, but its not something cannon.

                            Now, individual Acamoth, Golmoth or Intruders might want to eat magic, but that is something unique to said individual.
                            Last edited by MCN; 11-09-2016, 11:26 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Besides, for realms that "eat" stuff we already have the Lower Depths.

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